Workplace Safety

Hello all I am Mr. America.

I fight for truth, justice, and the employment of 14-15 year olds in dangerous grain silos and hoppers with very little regulation!

Let me tell ya somethin’ brother, whatcha gonna do? When the beans and corn come down on you? Answer: Suffocate to death.

NPR’s Buried in Grain posted:

Employee #1, 14 years old, was working in a bean hopper and was pulled into the beans while they were being drawn out the bottom of the hopper. He suffocated to death.

 

NPR’s Buried in Grain posted:

Employee #1, age 15, was atop a railroad car watching the unloading of corn from the center bin compartment. He was last seen sitting on the edge of the compartment with his legs hanging freely in the bin. Employee #1 apparently lost his balance, fell into the compartment, and was pulled under the flowing corn in the bin. He died of suffocation. There were no witnesses to the fall.

And this one is pretty goddamned horrifying:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/26/17482…trapment-deaths

Fines Slashed in Grain Entrapment Deaths posted:

On July 28, 2010, during the first two hours of work, the boys were making progress in Bin No. 9, shoveling corn toward the center hole and hacking at kernels crusted four to six inches thick on the sides of the bin.

Then Schaffner opened a second drain hole in the bottom of the bin, according to Piper and the account in Schaffner’s Labor Department deposition. Beneath the drain holes, a conveyor belt carried the corn away. The flowing corn inside the bin formed a second cone near the boys.

“It created a quicksand effect, and Wyatt ended up getting caught up in it and started screaming for help,” Piper recalls. “Me and Alex went in after him, and we each grabbed one side of him under his armpits and started dragging him out and got pretty close to the edge of the quicksand, and then we started sinking in with him.”

Whitebread sank quickly in thousands of bushels of corn and disappeared. Piper says he and Pacas “kept sinking deeper and deeper up to our chests, completely just trapped in corn.”

Piled corn exerts enormous pressure, says Dave Newcomb, who teaches grain bin safety and rescue at the Illinois Fire Service Institute. The triangular kernels cling together and make extraction extremely difficult.

“It’s just like being shrink-wrapped and it’s constantly pushing against you like quicksand,” Newcomb says. “If you’re trapped in grain up to the waist, it takes over 600 pounds of force plus your body weight to free you from the grain.”

The Haasbach supervisor, Schaffner, climbed into the bin to try to dig the boys out, but every shovelful quickly filled in. He then climbed back out to guide arriving rescuers.

Piper is tall and lean and had a few inches on Pacas, so he didn’t sink as deeply. Falling corn from above made it worse, gathering around Pacas’ neck and chin. Piper remembers his friend screaming that he didn’t want to die.

“One last chunk of corn came flowing down and went around his face, and I still had one arm free,” Piper remembers, punctuating the tale with quiet sighs. “And I tried to sweep it away from his face as much as I could, and eventually there was just too much.”

Soon, only Pacas’ scalp and hand were visible above the grain.

“And his hand stopped moving,” Piper continues. “And the corn was up to my chin at that point.”

The tale gets a bit more gruesome after that, where Piper has to hug his dead friend’s corpse so the rescuers can get him free, and how he had to look at his dead friend’s face for the next six hours or so while they freed him.

This is all part of NPR’s recent report on people being buried alive, crushed, and suffocated in grain silos or related equipment. Just imagine what it would be like if you stood on a cylinder full of corn and you slowly sank in – the walls of the cylinder are 40 feet away and you can’t reach them, how do you climb up? You don’t, and especially if the corn is wet, you are hosed.

OSHA has regulations of course, things like safety harnesses that arrest an employee’s fall that can attach to a lifeline or simply not turning on augers while people are on the corn, but employers will skimp on that or not educate their employees about it. And on top of that, it’s very common for 14 year-olds to be employed in agricultural jobs like this. The laws that allow it evoke thoughts of JimBob working down on the farm helping to shuck corn so his paw and maw can bring a harvest to market over yonder. In reality, it’s an industrial mega-giant employing high school kids to do backbreaking labour for pennies on the dollar.

And every now and then, it leads to poo poo like this, where a bunch of improperly educated kids get agonisingly crushed or torn to shreds in front of their friends.

But don’t worry my little Americamaniacs! We’ve got this regulatory agency called OSHA, and when Sergeant Slaughter is beating on some poor jobber in the ring, OSHA’s music is gonna play and he’s gonna run in to put a stop to that poo poo by levying pathetically loving weak fines to the companies responsible.

In the case above, OSHA wanted to fine the owner of the silo who willfully ignored safety regulations that caused the deaths of two children $555,000. But no one pays the full amount, they get lawyers to negotiate stuff and he ended up paying $200,000. $100,000 for each dead kid. And that’s one of the harsher penalties OSHA has been able to levy.

Buried in Grain posted:

At approximately 10:30 a.m. on October 22, 1993, Employee #1, along with two coworkers, entered a silo filled with corn kernels. The kernels had accumulated in the silo to the height of approximately 33 to 35 feet. The employees were to walk on the kernels to push them down. This process is known as “walking down the corn.” The auger in the silo continued to operate while the employees walked down the corn. The wall of kernels caved in, burying Employee #1. The coworkers attempted to rescue him, but were not successful. There was no retrieval system in place for this kind of rescue effort and the employees were not trained in the specific procedures and safety practices of this task.

For the above death of a 19 year old employee, the owner of the silo was to be assessed a fine of $530,000. He ended up paying $42,000.

Our 15 year old friend up there who was suffocated after he was allowed to sit on top of a railroad car while grain was being poured in? You’ll be happy to know the owner of that company paid a hefty $420 fine. By far, the most egregious case of OSHA not being able to do poo poo about assholes in agriculture is the case of Cody Rigsby:

Buried in Grain posted:

About 12:45 PM on May 29, 2009, [foreman] Levi Bachmann told Cody Rigsby and another boy to enter Bin 21 to clean it out. Levi Bachmann allowed Cody Rigsby to enter Bin 21 despite knowing that the bucket elevator was not locked out and grain was flowing from the bin. While inside the bin, Cody Rigsby was engulfed by the flowing grain and sucked under where he died of asphyxiation. Despite the efforts of Cody Rigsby’s co-workers, they were unable to locate and rescue him. This fatality was preventable and occurred due to the lack of safety and health training, personnel protective and rescue equipment, unsafe work procedures and a lack of on-site emergency responders.

Clear loving cut, some idiot foreman told his worker to do something stupid and the worker ended up dead. OSHA was pissed and wanted the company to pay 1.5 million dollars in fines.

They ended up paying $50,000.

So the next time someone tells you regulations in America are hurting businesses, shove some loving corn in their mouth until they aspirate it and die. If what corporations are able to get away with is any indication, you’ll probably just pay a ten dollar fine and write a letter of apology to their mother.

I SAID LISTEN
Jan 10, 2007
I don’t *do* up.

For some reason I thought these were stories of horrific worker safety from a hundred years ago. Nope.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 19:48
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Tykero
Jun 22, 2009
Goddamn untrained fourteen-year-olds dying in my corn, driving up prices. So what if they suffocated? YOU’RE suffocating my freedom.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 19:53
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hypnotoad
Dec 16, 2007

But shakin’ its all I know!

What absolutely horrifying deaths.  Jesus Christ. I can’t even begin to imagine how terrifying it must have been for those poor kids.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 19:55
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simplefish
Mar 28, 2011

So long, and thanks for all thefish gallbladdΣrs!
This sounds like something out of the 1920s – the fine values as well.

“$420? But I draw a $5 a year salary!”

Although now I have an image of a surfboard in a grain silo, and my brain is happier.

Do you still send children up to sweep chimneys over there? Shouldn’t they have been in school, or was it the holidays or what?

# ? Mar 27, 2013 19:58
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Time_pants
Jun 25, 2012

Oh wow so they’re making a sequel to The Jungle, huh?
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:01
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Cheesus
Oct 17, 2002

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

pathetic little tramp posted:

Clear loving cut, some idiot foreman told his worker to do something stupid and the worker ended up dead. OSHA was pissed and wanted the company to pay 1.5 million dollars in fines.

They ended up paying $50,000.

So it didn’t cause a price increase for my Mt. Dew Code Red Big Gulp and my box of Doritos Locos Tacos?

I call that a bargain. The best I’ve ever had.

Hell, let’s get some more 14 year old kids in on this.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:01
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BeefThief
Aug 8, 2007

This is almost as bad as Obamacare 
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:03
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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Remind me to work out until I also am buff and have to keep a pillow in front of my okay I’ll be honest this is like the 50th custom title I’ve done tonight and I’m just phoning it in now.

Don’t worry, the free market will appropriately punish these farmers. All consumers need to do is research into where the grains in their mass produced super conglomerate food products originate from and the problem will solve itself! 
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:03
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Three Olives
Apr 10, 2005

Go on daaaahhhhling…
Jesus, slowly being covered in corn that will make me completely immobile until I suffocate to death trying to both breathe and not inhale corn is now near the top of my list of horrifying ways I do not wish to die but never considered possible.Three Olives fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 20:10
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:04
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Tiberius Thyben
Feb 7, 2013

Cheesus posted:

So it didn’t cause a price increase for my Mt. Dew Code Red Big Gulp and my box of Doritos Locos Tacos?

I call that a bargain. The best I’ve ever had.

Hell, let’s get some more 14 year old kids in on this.

14 year olds? Why not get some 8 year old kids working in there. They can fit into smaller places, and we can pay them a dollar an hour! We’ll pass the savings onto the consumer!

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:08
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Yaos
Feb 22, 2003

She is a cat of significant gravy.

The free market will create children that can breath through corn.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:09
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YouTuber
Jul 31, 2004
180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:11
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BAKA FLOCKA FLAME
Oct 9, 2012
If you see me posting in the trans megathread, report me so I can be banned! Thank you!

love, the management

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

Why even bother to do a thing when another thing is worse. Didn’t think of that huh 

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:14
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Tykero
Jun 22, 2009

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

You’re right. Why should we care about poorly-regulated dangerous working conditions for minors? People die every day.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:15
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toby
Dec 4, 2002

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

“YouTuber” indeed.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:16
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WastedJoker
Oct 29, 2011

Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shoulders… burning with the fires of Orc.
Suffocating in a huge pile of corn sounds way more preferable to drowning in slurry.

Slurry: A semiliquid mixture, typically of fine particles of manure, cement, or coal, and water.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19623343

Yuk.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:17
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Ars Arcanum
Jan 20, 2005

Best friends make the best weapons

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

There’s a pretty big difference between murder and “some kids died because their boss didn’t bother to spring some cash for a safety harness,” Champ.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:17
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BeefThief
Aug 8, 2007

We should just have midgets deal with the corn…I don’t know what that would solve but I think it’s a good idea.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:18
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evanstheone
Jul 4, 2010

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

And here we go.

You’re saying companies shouldn’t be responsible for the safety of their workers as long as they don’t kill TOO many people?evanstheone fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 20:24

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:19
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Three Olives
Apr 10, 2005

Go on daaaahhhhling…
Do you think the bothered to throw out the corn? I’m betting not.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:19
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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Remind me to work out until I also am buff and have to keep a pillow in front of my okay I’ll be honest this is like the 50th custom title I’ve done tonight and I’m just phoning it in now.

Three Olives posted:

Do you think the bothered to throw out the corn? I’m betting not.

And cut into their profit margins even more?!?

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:21
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HackerJoeGuy
Apr 18, 2007

OSHA is a shadow of what it used to be. Understaffed and a lot of their fining ability is limited thanks to maximum amounts based on specific criteria. Which is why you see a lot of the fines for death being between 40-100k.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:22
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Ars Arcanum
Jan 20, 2005

Best friends make the best weapons

Three Olives posted:

Do you think the bothered to throw out the corn? I’m betting not.

They probably pulled a “Let’s not and say we did.”

Also, delicious limited edition Dorito flavors.Ars Arcanum fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 20:31

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:22
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Tubgirl Cosplay
Jan 10, 2011

Time_pants posted:

Oh wow so they’re making a sequel to The Jungle, huh?

Not unless folks decide that dead kids in their slurpee syrup spoils the nutritional value, no.Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 20:25

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:23
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Illegal Username
Jul 20, 2007

You think that’s illegal? Heh, watch this.

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

america.txt

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:23
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Yaos
Feb 22, 2003

She is a cat of significant gravy.

Why do you guys think they send two people in? If one dies the other scrapes the corn out of their body. This is why all of you would fail as a business owner.

Almost forgot, if they both die the bill is sent to their next of kin.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:24
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ReidRansom
Oct 25, 2004

Three Olives posted:

Do you think the bothered to throw out the corn? I’m betting not.

This was my second thought.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:28
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schwenz
Jun 20, 2003

bleh

HackerJoeGuy posted:

OSHA is a shadow of what it used to be. Understaffed and a lot of their fining ability is limited thanks to maximum amounts based on specific criteria. Which is why you see a lot of the fines for death being between 40-100k.

There was a clip in the NPR report this morning where they mentioned that OSHA was getting these small fines passed, but environmental groups were getting huge fines passed for endangering wildlife.

I’d like to see some more info on those numbers.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:29
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Waroduce
Aug 5, 2008

‘S up fags?
I had a professor who had been a senator for a number of years. He said the most valuable piece of advice he ever got in his entire career as an elected official had been very simple. While he was serving on the Agricultural Sub-committee, a piece of legislature related to farm subsidies came to his hopper, and he didn’t think it should go through. He took the matter up with an older, more senior senator who had been on the hill for very many years. My professor expressed his doubt as to the quality of the legislation, expressed his desire to kill it, and asked the older senator for his advice. The old senator looked him very seriously and said, “Son, if you want to have a career here, don’t gently caress with big Ag”.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:31
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ReidRansom
Oct 25, 2004

HackerJoeGuy posted:

OSHA is a shadow of what it used to be. Understaffed and a lot of their fining ability is limited thanks to maximum amounts based on specific criteria. Which is why you see a lot of the fines for death being between 40-100k.

Psh, everything is fine, safety is at an all-time high, we don’t need to spend all this money.

*cuts budget*

Government can’t do anything right! Why are we paying for these ineffective big government programs?!

*cuts budget again*

Just look at how bad a job they do!

*continues cutting budget*

Eliminate [government program or department]!

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:32
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toby
Dec 4, 2002

WastedJoker posted:

Suffocating in a huge pile of corn sounds way more preferable to drowning in slurry.

Slurry: A semiliquid mixture, typically of fine particles of manure, cement, or coal, and water.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19623343

Yuk.

I am reminded of a D&D thread a while back about pork farming (including a section about workers falling into giant poo poo-lakes and dying) that was so horrifying I couldn’t eat pork for months afterward. I still avoid it more often than not.

ReidRansom posted:

Psh, everything is fine, safety is at an all-time high, we don’t need to spend all this money.
*cuts budget*
Government can’t do anything right! Why are we paying for these ineffective big government programs?!
*cuts budget again*
Just look at how bad a job they do!
*continues cutting budget*
Eliminate [government program or department]!

This is the stated strategy, yes. Pick a program you don’t like, run it into the ground, privatize it.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:35
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Requested_Username
Nov 27, 2007

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

gently caress, more people die from car accidents in a single month than in any major city in a year. poo poo way to go out but murder’s hardly a major issue.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:41
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T. Finninho
Aug 27, 2004

Likes: Katanas, Corea, Entertainment Centre, Couch, Yellow, Bald

click my av for a fun surprise

toby posted:

I am reminded of a D&D thread a while back about pork farming (including a section about workers falling into giant poo poo-lakes and dying) that was so horrifying I couldn’t eat pork for months afterward. I still avoid it more often than not.

This is the stated strategy, yes. Pick a program you don’t like, run it into the ground, privatize it.

Rolling Stone article, first thing I thought of, it’s grotesque but hey free markets maaaaaaaan

http://neverloseaholycuriousity.blo…jeff-tietz.html

lol Rolling Stone doesn’t have the article on their site anymore, loving useless, so you don’t get the pictures of massive lakes of pigshit that have gone pink

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:41
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fuck the ROW
Aug 29, 2008

toby posted:

I am reminded of a D&D thread a while back about pork farming (including a section about workers falling into giant poo poo-lakes and dying) that was so horrifying I couldn’t eat pork for months afterward. I still avoid it more often than not.

I love these threads. It almost got you to stop eating bacon. These are important issues guys!!

Personally I’d say burning corn for fuel is a way bigger issue. Oh boy let’s run our cars on corn liquor and drive food prices up while ruining every engine on the road, not to mention the impact on food aid. Didn’t America used to be called the breadbasket of the world? Now it’s more profitable to make ethanol instead and collect that sweet sweet subsidy.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:48
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IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

toby posted:

I am reminded of a D&D thread a while back about pork farming (including a section about workers falling into giant poo poo-lakes and dying) that was so horrifying I couldn’t eat pork for months afterward. I still avoid it more often than not.

Don’t forget that they then spray the water from the poo poo lagoons out into the wind to get rid of it. You know, to “fertilize their fields.”

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:48
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Dissapointed Owl
Jan 30, 2008

You wrote me a letter,
and this is how it went:

WastedJoker posted:

Suffocating in a huge pile of corn sounds way more preferable to drowning in slurry.

Slurry: A semiliquid mixture, typically of fine particles of manure, cement, or coal, and water.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19623343

Yuk.

Graphically portrayed in the after school special ‘Apaches':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0GyRz_lOQA#t=642s

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:55
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toby
Dec 4, 2002

gently caress the ROW posted:

I love these threads. It almost got you to stop eating bacon. These are important issues guys!!

I was grossed out but let’s be real here, I’m not seriously going to inconvenience myself. Destroy the earth.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 20:55
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Thundercracker
Jun 25, 2004

Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.
Sometimes you win
Sometimes you lose
Sometimes you eat corn
and sometimes corn eats you
oring Person
Mar 21, 2012

Morally Inept posted:

Like bad dental hygiene?

It’s not like people in America end up saving money to have their teeth pulled and buy dentures because it’s far cheaper than having them properly fixed.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:33
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Manawski
Oct 20, 2003

HOW DO I MADE PUDDING

Ars Arcanum posted:

There’s a pretty big difference between murder and “some kids died because their boss didn’t bother to spring some cash for a safety harness,” Champ.

Is it really? I mean, criminally negligent homicide isn’t “murder” but it’s pretty goddamn close.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:35
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French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Quick Robin, to the Fatmobile!

T. Finninho posted:

Rolling Stone article, first thing I thought of, it’s grotesque but hey free markets maaaaaaaan

http://neverloseaholycuriousity.blo…jeff-tietz.html

lol Rolling Stone doesn’t have the article on their site anymore, loving useless, so you don’t get the pictures of massive lakes of pigshit that have gone pink

The Wikipedia article on the chairman of that pig-producing wonder is not written very objectively, either. I wish there was some sort of internet army that went around fixing corporately-tainted Wikipedia articles.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:40
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an adult beverage
Aug 13, 2005

1,2,3,4,5 dem gators don’t take no jive. go gator -US Rep. Corrine Brown (D) FL

Why is OSHA so impotent when it comes to actually getting the initial fine amount? I mean I know “lawyers” and all, but how the heck are the lawyers negotiating down a fine by 97%?
# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:44
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Tom Pridgen
Apr 28, 2008

What are the restrictions on teenager parts in your corn flakes?
# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:44
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Amused to Death
Aug 10, 2009

google “The Night Witches”, and prepare for 

Morally Inept posted:

Like bad dental hygiene?

I remember during the original health care debate this was a common meme that kept coming up, yet actual surveys of dentists showed the opposite. Brits have healthier teeth, we on the other hand are just obsessed with our rotting teeth being perfectly straight and gleaming white.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:58
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ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Probation
Can’t post for 3 days!

gently caress the ROW posted:

Personally I’d say burning corn for fuel is a way bigger issue. Oh boy let’s run our cars on corn liquor and drive food prices up while ruining every engine on the road, not to mention the impact on food aid. Didn’t America used to be called the breadbasket of the world? Now it’s more profitable to make ethanol instead and collect that sweet sweet subsidy.

Ethanol subsidy ended like a year ago (or more) and the current focus is on lignocellulosic mass (stuff like the non-edible part of the corn plant) rather than starches (like corn itself). Also no one is trying to use ethanol as an actual fuel source because it’s a terrible fuel, yeah a bit of it can make gas a tad cheaper but there’s a reason why there’s restrictions regarding how much you can put into your car. Instead, ethanol is being used as a good building block to make actual fuels. Through enough refinement you can upgrade ethanol to gasoline/diesel/jet fuel ranges and there’s tons of research being done on that very topic, pretty much half my lab group is doing their thesis on such conversions.

The reason people are so interested in biofuels is because our entire infrastructure is set up to handle liquid fuels, biofuels are by no means the best energy option available (if you think about it, it’s essentially indirect conversion of solar energy via plant growth and photosynthesis) but they’re far and away the best option to transition from our current dependence on oil into a future where we might have more hydrogen/electricity/whatever powered cars.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 21:58
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Pope Mobile
Nov 12, 2006

Talked to Jesus lately? More bars in more churches, synagogues, mosques and all other places of worship, guaranteed.

Looks like pork and grits for dinner tonight.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:08
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TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012

Working on a farm during my summers up in Canada I find it pretty loving insane that stuff like this is still happening. We don’t grow corn so my knowledge on this is pretty lacking but why on earth would you need to send someone into the top of a bin of corn? Generally we wait until the level of grain in the bin’s low enough that we can safely get into the bin, then we start shovelling the rest of it into the centre augur. I can’t imagine my employers ever sending me down to trod on moving grain for any reason. 
# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:09
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exethan
May 28, 2007
too legit to quit (smoking, caffeine, etc.)

an adult beverage posted:

Why is OSHA so impotent when it comes to actually getting the initial fine amount? I mean I know “lawyers” and all, but how the heck are the lawyers negotiating down a fine by 97%?

They’re involved in a partnership with those debt collector ads on television with payment plans and huge savings, and please call today.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:10
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Divine Disclaimer
Jan 24, 2013

He hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife.

Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped there wasn’t an afterlife.

Is whitebread really a name?
# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:13
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runupon cracker
Jan 13, 2006

This will hurt me more than it hurts you.

ReidRansom posted:

Psh, everything is fine, safety is at an all-time high, we don’t need to spend all this money.

*cuts budget*

Government can’t do anything right! Why are we paying for these ineffective big government programs?!

*cuts budget again*

Just look at how bad a job they do!

*continues cutting budget*

Eliminate [government program or department]!

You forgot a step.

*privatize [government program or department] with company you just happen to have a financial stake in*

edit: …as toby pointed out in the post directly after yours runupon cracker fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 22:17

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:15
  • Quote
Wario In Real Life
Nov 9, 2009

Divine Disclaimer posted:

Is whitebread really a name?

This is the main thing I took away from reading that article.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:16
  • Quote
Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

runupon cracker posted:

You forgot a step.

*privatize [government program or department] with company you just happen to have a financial stake in*

edit: …as toby pointed out in the post directly after yours 

You missed the part where the politicians go “Well you don’t really need this because it stifles small, mom and pop businesses*” while overtly suggesting that if you do infact want it, it’s because you’re a socialist nazi.

*this part here is bullshit.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:25
  • Quote
Aristobulus
Mar 20, 2007

Slap omni-gel on
everything.

These avatars paid for Lowtax new boat.

Morally Inept posted:

Like bad dental hygiene?

Fun fact – Brits actually have better teeth because they have universal healthcare that covers dental work. A lot of Americans rarely if ever see dentists so Americans on average have much less healthy teeth – because it costs Americans way too much money to see a dentist and a lot of health insurance companies won’t even cover dentalwork even if you have insurance!

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:29
  • Quote
angerbot
Mar 23, 2004

Maybe if those boys didn’t love the sweet taste of corn so much we’d never have had this tragedy.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:33
  • Quote
Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007
I was actually going to say that in response to him but finding hard evidence to back it up was difficult.

Also private dentists are actually better over here then they are in the states. The reason is that if they charge too much people just use the NHS instead :v

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:33
  • Quote
Divine Disclaimer
Jan 24, 2013

He hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife.

Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped there wasn’t an afterlife.

angerbot posted:

Maybe if those boys didn’t love the sweet taste of corn so much we’d never have had this tragedy.

Maybe if they didn’t dress so provocatively the corn wouldn’t have been so compelled to engulf them.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:39
  • Quote
Supercar Gautier
Jun 10, 2006

angerbot posted:

Maybe if those boys didn’t love the sweet taste of corn so much we’d never have had this tragedy.

Maybe if they loved it more, they could have eaten their way to safety.

What are the odds of loving corn exactly the wrong amount?

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:48
  • Quote
oxsnard
Oct 8, 2003

Big XII Doormat

an adult beverage posted:

Why is OSHA so impotent when it comes to actually getting the initial fine amount? I mean I know “lawyers” and all, but how the heck are the lawyers negotiating down a fine by 97%?

Well it’s pretty standard in the EHS field. I’ve seen tons of cases where an environmental agency can prove that a company failed to install pollution control for 5 or so years and therefore reaped $5-10 million in economic benefit. Company has clout with another agency (say a governors office or dept of natural resources) and walks away with a $800,000 fine and has the balls to bitch about being put “out of business” by said fines.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:52
  • Quote
WastedJoker
Oct 29, 2011

Fiery the angels fell. Deep thunder rolled around their shoulders… burning with the fires of Orc.
Maybe if those boys were carrying around concealed corn this wouldn’t have happened.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:56
  • Quote
Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

METAL GEAR!?

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

I dunno, considering that this shouldn’t happen, uh, ever, 180 over 18 years of data is actually pretty alarming. It’s not like this should be even nearly that common.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 22:58
  • Quote
Slapdash
Mar 30, 2010
This explains the Axe body spray flavors of Doritos that pop up now and then. That smell doesn’t come off of anything.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:05
  • Quote
Oral Slither
Aug 26, 2006

You know, I don’t think I’m gonna be Jewish for very long.

T. Finninho posted:

Rolling Stone article, first thing I thought of, it’s grotesque but hey free markets maaaaaaaan

http://neverloseaholycuriousity.blo…jeff-tietz.html

lol Rolling Stone doesn’t have the article on their site anymore, loving useless, so you don’t get the pictures of massive lakes of pigshit that have gone pink

I remember one series of horrible deaths involving the pig farms. Some poor soul fell in the pigshit lagoon, and four or five other people tried to go in to save them, but everyone involved died.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:17
  • Quote
Espy
Apr 21, 2010

Would you draft me?
I’d draft me.
I’d draft me hard.
The Indiana State fair has an entire exhibit related to this. It’s pretty scary stuff to be working with a silo.
# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:20
  • Quote
Jake Blues
Jun 17, 2003

Cruisin’ for burgers.

Nightmares or not, I say creamed corn is worse to die in.

seriously, though it’s horribly tragic The Jungle still exists.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:22
  • Quote
withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

Espy posted:

The Indiana State fair has an entire exhibit related to this. It’s pretty scary stuff to be working with a silo.

I’ve seen these at more than one state fair. The good ones have a small bin of grain with a accurately-weighted manikin sinking in it that you can try to haul free with a rope. Most people can’t do it.withak fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 23:33

# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:25
  • Quote
Zorblack
Oct 8, 2008

Ars Arcanum posted:

There’s a pretty big difference between murder and “some kids died because their boss didn’t bother to spring some cash for a safety harness,” Champ.

Actually, there’s not a huge difference. The negligence of these bosses is causing the death of employees in shoddy conditions. That’s within spitting distance of murder, I’d say.

# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:30
  • Quote
Manawski
Oct 20, 2003

HOW DO I MADE PUDDING

Oral Slither posted:

I remember one series of horrible deaths involving the pig farms. Some poor soul fell in the pigshit lagoon, and four or five other people tried to go in to save them, but everyone involved died.

Hydrogen Sulfide is not to be hosed with. I can almost guarantee that’s how those people died. It’s extremely toxic, explosive, corrosive, and is one of the major constituents of that smell they’re describing in the article. The great thing about H2S is that once it reaches a certain concentration, it kills your sense of smell, so you have no way of knowing you are in danger until you fall over dead.

You can’t really burn H2S either, because then you have Sulfur Dioxide, which is just as bad, if not worse in terms of toxicity 

# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:41
  • Quote
BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Not to dissuade anyone from some good old fashioned outrage, but OSHA fines are kinda the least of your worries if there’s a job site fatality. The big bucks get paid to insurers and the family of the victim. But mostly to the insurance companies. There’s every incentive in the world not to have lovely safety records, and OSHA only has a little bit to do with it. Which is probably why there have been so few of these types of fatalities.BigFactory fucked around with this message at Mar 27, 2013 around 23:55
# ? Mar 27, 2013 23:53
  • Quote
YOURFRIEND
Feb 3, 2009

You’re an asshole, Mr. Grinch
You really are a cunt
You’re as cuddly as a cockring
and charming being a shitheel
FUCK YOURFRIEND!
Couldn’t you just kinda….grit your teeth and breathe that way? The corn wouldn’t be able to fit through gaps in your teeth and you should still be able to breathe since corn isn’t all that dense? Or put your shirt up over your mouth or something?
# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:04
  • Quote
Sheen Sheen
Nov 18, 2002

Drone_Fragger posted:

There is a reason that people laugh about america here in Britain and it’s because they lack stuff that we in Britain had 100 years ago.

This is extra funny because all I had to do was type in “silo deaths uk” into google and I got several examples of British people being killed by silos from much more recently than 100 years ago.

# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:06
  • Quote
exethan
May 28, 2007
too legit to quit (smoking, caffeine, etc.)

YOURFRIEND posted:

Couldn’t you just kinda….grit your teeth and breathe that way? The corn wouldn’t be able to fit through gaps in your teeth and you should still be able to breathe since corn isn’t all that dense? Or put your shirt up over your mouth or something?

Corn is really dirty.

# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:07
  • Quote
mr. nazi
Sep 25, 2004

Net contents 12 fluid oz.

YOURFRIEND posted:

Couldn’t you just kinda….grit your teeth and breathe that way? The corn wouldn’t be able to fit through gaps in your teeth and you should still be able to breathe since corn isn’t all that dense? Or put your shirt up over your mouth or something?

Haven’t you ever seen multi-colored corn in a jar for decorative purposes or for sale at a store or whatever?

That poo poo gets packed tight. Now imagine that in all directions above and below you. You’re hosed.

# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:08
  • Quote
Copley Depot
Jul 9, 2009

This space reserved for future text.

mr. nazi posted:

Haven’t you ever seen multi-colored corn in a jar for decorative purposes or for sale at a store or whatever?

That poo poo gets packed tight. Now imagine that in all directions above and below you. You’re hosed.

Also you’re going to be struggling to climb out or even keep from sinking, which just makes you go through oxygen faster.

 

 

 

 

 

TheKingofSprings posted:

Working on a farm during my summers up in Canada I find it pretty loving insane that stuff like this is still happening. We don’t grow corn so my knowledge on this is pretty lacking but why on earth would you need to send someone into the top of a bin of corn? Generally we wait until the level of grain in the bin’s low enough that we can safely get into the bin, then we start shovelling the rest of it into the centre augur. I can’t imagine my employers ever sending me down to trod on moving grain for any reason. 

This exactly. I grew up on a grain farm and you should never ever get on top of the corn in an emptying bin until it’s near the bottom. The only reason you could possibly need to get in is if you had to break a crust that had formed which means you’re going to fall through into a pocket and loving die. Anyone who’s spent any amount of time around grain should know this so these bosses are pretty much straight up murderers.

This isn’t an issue of “there should’ve been safety equipment” it’s an issue of you should never do that no matter what because even a harness might not save you when you inevitably fall under.

YOURFRIEND posted:

Couldn’t you just kinda….grit your teeth and breathe that way? The corn wouldn’t be able to fit through gaps in your teeth and you should still be able to breathe since corn isn’t all that dense? Or put your shirt up over your mouth or something?

Corn is heavy and packs tight, if you get buried it’s going to squeeze you.

Monkey Fracas
Sep 11, 2010

…but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!
So… nothing in effect happens to the employers that allow such flagrantly dangerous working conditions? Standing on top of moving grain is loving insane. I guess The Corn Must Flow.

(Hint to countries that wish to sabotage the US: invent a horrible fungus that kills corn. Many of us will promptly die of starvation as it’s in everything here.) 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:38
  • Quote
Manawski
Oct 20, 2003

HOW DO I MADE PUDDING

Monsanto already has developed and holds patents to all horrible fungi that kill corn. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:44
  • Quote
Ars Arcanum
Jan 20, 2005

Best friends make the best weapons

Zorblack posted:

Actually, there’s not a huge difference. The negligence of these bosses is causing the death of employees in shoddy conditions. That’s within spitting distance of murder, I’d say.

Manawski posted:

Is it really? I mean, criminally negligent homicide isn’t “murder” but it’s pretty goddamn close.

I was referring to the issue of preventability–murder is typically going to be a bit more difficult to prevent on a widespread scale (because of all the factors that tend to play into its cause) than “death by grain bin” (which can be averted in most cases by meeting some relatively simple workplace safety standards). The employers/bosses certainly deserve more of a penalty than a relatively minor fine. Too bad even coverage like this isn’t likely to bring any real attention to or consequences for the industry. 

Edit: Also, gently caress Monsanto and corn in general. It’s such a lovely “food.”Ars Arcanum fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 00:54

# ? Mar 28, 2013 00:50
  • Quote
ghetto wormhole
Sep 15, 2008

Ars Arcanum posted:

I was referring to the issue of preventability–murder is typically going to be a bit more difficult to prevent on a widespread scale (because of all the factors that tend to play into its cause) than “death by grain bin” (which can be averted in most cases by meeting some relatively simple workplace safety standards). The employers/bosses certainly deserve more of a penalty than a relatively minor fine. Too bad even coverage like this isn’t likely to bring any real attention to or consequences for the industry. 

As I said before, this can be averted in all cases because there’s no reason to be in a bin while it’s unloading except at the very end and the only reason you might need to be in there would mean it’s 100% guaranteed dangerous. This is straight up negligent homicide. It’s like the boss of a mechanic shop telling his employees to keep the doors closed while they run car engines.

Ars Arcanum posted:

Edit: Also, gently caress Monsanto and corn in general. It’s such a lovely “food.”

 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:06
  • Quote
particle409
Jan 15, 2008

“Thou tongueless crook-pated whore-master!”
I’m all for enforcing basic, existing safety regulations, but I find it hard to give a poo poo when I’m hearing about it on NPR while driving around New York. Maybe the people of Indiana can say speak up. A couple hundred teenagers die, and it’s going to have zero effect on the entire east coast. Likewise, bitching about it in NY is not going to accomplish a whole lot. The only way this will ever change is from local pressure put on Indiana politicians. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:15
  • Quote
BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

A fatality in any workplace costs millions of dollars, just not exclusively in OSHA fines, and often results in a business folding. Saying anything else is being ignorant.

Not to mention that silo deaths are completely statistically insignificant. It’s like the local news getting worked up over shark attacks or child abductions. Great headline, but that’s about it. If its 180 deaths since 1984, that’s 6 a year and I’ll wager anything that the number is weighted much heavier towards the early years of the range. At this point, are we talking 1 death a year? Out of hundreds of thousands of ag workers? That strikes me as a very good safety record with a few really grizzly and sensational outliers. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:20
  • Quote
etalian
Mar 20, 2006

BigFactory posted:

A fatality in any workplace costs millions of dollars, just not exclusively in OSHA fines, and often results in a business folding. Saying anything else is being ignorant.

Not to mention that silo deaths are completely statistically insignificant. It’s like the local news getting worked up over shark attacks or child abductions. Great headline, but that’s about it. If its 180 deaths since 1984, that’s 6 a year and I’ll wager anything that the number is weighted much heavier towards the early years of the range. At this point, are we talking 1 death a year? Out of hundreds of thousands of ag workers? That strikes me as a very good safety record with a few really grizzly and sensational outliers.

The government is so mean to go after helpless big businesses for not following safety regulations especially when the OP pointed out the trivial settlement costs for many of the deaths. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:22
  • Quote
Ars Arcanum
Jan 20, 2005

Best friends make the best weapons

ghetto wormhole posted:

As I said before, this can be averted in all cases because there’s no reason to be in a bin while it’s unloading except at the very end and the only reason you might need to be in there would mean it’s 100% guaranteed dangerous. This is straight up negligent homicide. It’s like the boss of a mechanic shop telling his employees to keep the doors closed while they run car engines.

Not really sure why you’re nitpicking at me, when the point of my original post was to point out that saying essentially “murder is a much bigger issue than some people dying totally preventable deaths” is stupid? But keep on keeping on, I guess.

BigFactory posted:

A fatality in any workplace costs millions of dollars, just not exclusively in OSHA fines, and often results in a business folding. Saying anything else is being ignorant.

Not to mention that silo deaths are completely statistically insignificant. It’s like the local news getting worked up over shark attacks or child abductions. Great headline, but that’s about it. If its 180 deaths since 1984, that’s 6 a year and I’ll wager anything that the number is weighted much heavier towards the early years of the range. At this point, are we talking 1 death a year? Out of hundreds of thousands of ag workers? That strikes me as a very good safety record with a few really grizzly and sensational outliers.

Maybe the businesses should take better care of their employees? You can argue that accidents sometimes will happen, but these cases were quite clearly preventable. Also, lawsuits, OSHA, etc. are barely going to put a dent in the profits of the industry at hand here. This isn’t some small operation where a sad and tragic accident happened and someone sued the poo poo out of Mom and Pop to the point where they had to give up their livelihood. This was players in a major industry who knew better than to skip on basic safety measures did so anyway, and people wound up dead.Ars Arcanum fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 01:35

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:28
  • Quote
Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin’

ghetto wormhole posted:

This exactly. I grew up on a grain farm and you should never ever get on top of the corn in an emptying bin until it’s near the bottom. The only reason you could possibly need to get in is if you had to break a crust that had formed which means you’re going to fall through into a pocket and loving die. Anyone who’s spent any amount of time around grain should know this so these bosses are pretty much straight up murderers.

This isn’t an issue of “there should’ve been safety equipment” it’s an issue of you should never do that no matter what because even a harness might not save you when you inevitably fall under.

Corn is heavy and packs tight, if you get buried it’s going to squeeze you.

The real awful bit is that we now have (and have had for years) technology that completely removes even that excuse for being in a bin with grain. Acoustic cleaners hit the grain with massive pulses of sound to break up any blockages and keep things flowing cleanly. They are not perfect but they should be enough to make manual entry into the silo or grain bin an exceedingly rare event, certainly not something you do while continuing to empty the bin! 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:33
  • Quote
etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Shifty Pony posted:

The real awful bit is that we now have (and have had for years) technology that completely removes even that excuse for being in a bin with grain. Acoustic cleaners hit the grain with massive pulses of sound to break up any blockages and keep things flowing cleanly. They are not perfect but they should be enough to make manual entry into the silo or grain bin an exceedingly rare event, certainly not something you do while continuing to empty the bin!

But sounds more expensive than paying a $400 fine, after all teenagers are a renewable resource. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:34
  • Quote
Manawski
Oct 20, 2003

HOW DO I MADE PUDDING

Have you ever met the people of Indiana?

If Indiana is anything like most of Ohio (it is), OSHA is considered merely a tax collecting agency hellbent on putting hard working business owners under and ‘that Obama’ is trying to force teenagers into welfare instead of going out and earning their keep like God intended.

Seriously, most of the argument around here and probably everywhere else for that matter for following OSHA regulations is presented as ‘avoid a fine’ instead of ‘do your confined space entry permit and follow it to the letter or human beings might loving die’

If you look at it like OSHA probably does, it’s a death due to a confined space.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/confinedspace/

We’re averaging 92 per year in the US. Now it makes a little more sense why OSHA gives a drat about these kind of incidents, does it not? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:36
  • Quote
HondaRider271
Jul 19, 2007

Emotionally and genitally stunted

I don’t really care how much the fine from OSHA is, I’m more interested in how much they pay the families. If they pay the families a $1 million settlement and fire the supervisor then the fine from OSHA is pretty immaterial. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:37
  • Quote
ghetto wormhole
Sep 15, 2008

Ars Arcanum posted:

Not really sure why you’re nitpicking at me, when the point of my original post was to point out that saying essentially “murder is a much bigger issue than some people dying totally preventable deaths”? But keep on keeping on, I guess.

I was just talking about the “preventable in most cases” thing when it’s worse than just some workplace accident that happens because poo poo’s dangerous.

Sorry, I didn’t realize you’d be so upset by my quoting your post once. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:37
  • Quote
Azzural
Jul 9, 2012

You will obey the bunny.

HondaRider271 posted:

I don’t really care how much the fine from OSHA is, I’m more interested in how much they pay the families. If they pay the families a $1 million settlement and fire the supervisor then the fine from OSHA is pretty immaterial.

I would be interested to know if the company/farm/whatever even pays the family. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:44
  • Quote
Heteroy
Mar 13, 2004

The HenneWagon has been derailed, but you’re in luck!

Hop on the Rosencopter. It’ll take you the rest of the way!

BigFactory posted:

A fatality in any workplace costs millions of dollars, just not exclusively in OSHA fines, and often results in a business folding. Saying anything else is being ignorant.

Not to mention that silo deaths are completely statistically insignificant. It’s like the local news getting worked up over shark attacks or child abductions. Great headline, but that’s about it. If its 180 deaths since 1984, that’s 6 a year and I’ll wager anything that the number is weighted much heavier towards the early years of the range. At this point, are we talking 1 death a year? Out of hundreds of thousands of ag workers? That strikes me as a very good safety record with a few really grizzly and sensational outliers.

The NPR special said 24 deaths in 2010. No year by year count given beyond that. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:51
  • Quote
Manawski
Oct 20, 2003

HOW DO I MADE PUDDING

Azzural posted:

I would be interested to know if the company/farm/whatever even pays the family.

The insurance company is supposed to.

I’m sure it’s a completely painless process for the bereaved to obtain their settlement from the company’s insurance provide, and they do not attempt to drag it out in court to wear down the family into a lesser settlement. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 01:58
  • Quote
Znorps!
Jan 9, 2004

Franklin B. Znorps

Dignity, Class, Internet

T. Finninho posted:

Rolling Stone article, first thing I thought of, it’s grotesque but hey free markets maaaaaaaan

http://neverloseaholycuriousity.blo…jeff-tietz.html

lol Rolling Stone doesn’t have the article on their site anymore, loving useless, so you don’t get the pictures of massive lakes of pigshit that have gone pink

Ugh. This turned my stomach. The glorious free market.

also:

redmercer posted:

Lookit the dog fucker making fun of British teeth 

EDIT: You can buy me a title but there’s no un-raping that dog

Holy poo poo, saw this and clicked on the link in his custom title. WTF. This is the worst thread ever.Znorps! fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 02:42

# ? Mar 28, 2013 02:29
  • Quote
Wildlife Analysis
Jul 26, 2008

Straight Bumblin’

Heteroy posted:

The NPR special said 24 deaths in 2010. No year by year count given beyond that.

24? Ha. That is hardly worthy of any concern or perhaps regulation of agribusiness. Call me when it gets to 1000.  

# ? Mar 28, 2013 02:30
  • Quote
Ashenai
Oct 5, 2005

You taught me language;
and my profit on’t
Is, I know how to curse.

YouTuber posted:

180 since 1984 is hardly a number worth crying over. gently caress, more people die from violent murder in a single year in any major city than in the 29 years of those records. poo poo way to go out but it’s hardly a major issue.

Oh! I didn’t think of it that way. What do you feel the right number of kids dying in preventable industrial accidents would be? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 02:55
  • Quote
fursmbrero
Dec 27, 2002

Manawski posted:

Have you ever met the people of Indiana?

If Indiana is anything like most of Ohio (it is), OSHA is considered merely a tax collecting agency hellbent on putting hard working business owners under and ‘that Obama’ is trying to force teenagers into welfare instead of going out and earning their keep like God intended.

Seriously, most of the argument around here and probably everywhere else for that matter for following OSHA regulations is presented as ‘avoid a fine’ instead of ‘do your confined space entry permit and follow it to the letter or human beings might loving die’

If you look at it like OSHA probably does, it’s a death due to a confined space.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/confinedspace/

We’re averaging 92 per year in the US. Now it makes a little more sense why OSHA gives a drat about these kind of incidents, does it not?

Not dealing with ag, but an anecdote about how OSHA is perceived in Indiana. My uncle worked on the shop floor of an industrial metal fab shop, and OSHA announced they were coming through a few weeks in advance; this gave them enough time to clear obstructions from doorways, install chains across open catwalks, reset deadman switches, etc. After they passed their inspection, everything went back the way it was, and my uncle proudly recounted the story, laughing at how they ‘fooled OSHA.’ This was a factory where it was not uncommon for people to lose the tip of a finger here, a whole finger there, and in one case, an arm up to the elbow. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 02:55
  • Quote
angerbot
Mar 23, 2004

Ashenai posted:

Oh! I didn’t think of it that way. What do you feel the right number of kids dying in preventable industrial accidents would be?

I could see 7, if everyone is agreeable. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:00
  • Quote
Pope Mobile
Nov 12, 2006

Talked to Jesus lately? More bars in more churches, synagogues, mosques and all other places of worship, guaranteed.

7 is too lucky a number. Let’s go with 6. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:12
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

Pope Mobile posted:

7 is too lucky a number. Let’s go with 6.

If you aren’t talking per silo then you are discriminating against the poor bastard that has number 6 die in his silo. I mean yeah, he might have passed the acceptable limit mark, but what if the 1st kid had died in his, not the 6th? The simple fact that he is #6 just means that you are punishing him for something completely out of his control. He can’t control the order in which these kids get themselves killed, what could he possibly do to prevent such a tragedy from befalling himself? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:17
  • Quote
Blast of Confetti
Apr 21, 2008
I’ve found a solution to the population crisis in low income areas. We can drown all their teenagers in corn. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:20
  • Quote
redmercer
Sep 15, 2011

Tom Pridgen posted:

What are the restrictions on teenager parts in your corn flakes?

They probably only don’t make “Teenager Flakes” because of marketing difficulties 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:22
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

redmercer posted:

They probably only don’t make “Teenager Flakes” because of marketing difficulties

Marketing difficulties? Our Flakes have protein!
Everybody loves protein.  Better yet, they could only use Greek teens, and then market “High Protein Greek style flakes!” Greek is in. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:24
  • Quote
Fallom
Sep 6, 2008
I dunno, corndeath doesn’t seem preventable at all. I just don’t see us ever getting to a point where there’s not a single corndeath happening ever again, it’s just a pipe dream. How are you going to prevent crimes of cornpassion? Corncops in every silo? 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:30
  • Quote
jscolon2.0
Jul 9, 2001

With great payroll, comes great disappointment.

angerbot posted:

I could see 7, if everyone is agreeable.

No way, I’m not paying a penny more for Coke or other High Fructose Corn Syrup containing product. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:31
  • Quote
Talkc
Aug 2, 2010

Mizuki! Mizuki! Mizuki!
***DEVASTATINGLY HANDSOME***

Everytime i see something like this, I have to remind myself that this is just one mole in a god drat HILL of bullshit that is wrong with America.

It is also without a doubt the most horrifying thing ive read in a while. At least since the Delta-p thread. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:34
  • Quote
Wario In Real Life
Nov 9, 2009

Talkc posted:

Everytime i see something like this, I have to remind myself that this is just one mole in a god drat HILL of bullshit that is wrong with the world.

Fixed that for you. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:38
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

Talkc posted:

Everytime i see something like this, I have to remind myself that this is just one mole in a god drat HILL of bullshit that is wrong with America.

Without those regulations every child in America could have the opportunity to seek out and obtain a job that could likely maim or kill them. If those kids are willing to work in dangerous or even deadly workplaces, who is to tell them they can’t? I completely agree with what you wrote, and I can’t believe how much of a nanny socialist state this country has become.
Edit: People really believe this.  

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:46
  • Quote
B.H. Facials
May 9, 2011

The B.H. is short for butthole.

Manawski posted:

Hydrogen Sulfide is not to be hosed with. I can almost guarantee that’s how those people died. It’s extremely toxic, explosive, corrosive, and is one of the major constituents of that smell they’re describing in the article. The great thing about H2S is that once it reaches a certain concentration, it kills your sense of smell, so you have no way of knowing you are in danger until you fall over dead.

You can’t really burn H2S either, because then you have Sulfur Dioxide, which is just as bad, if not worse in terms of toxicity 

Actually it’s methane that’s the culprit. It’s heavier than air, odorless and displaces the oxygen. By the time you feel lightheaded due to lack of O2 it’s already too late. It’s not difficult for people to be overcome by it without realizing it’s happening because they’re exhaling CO2 so the sensation of suffocating is lost. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 03:48
  • Quote
angerbot
Mar 23, 2004

jscolon2.0 posted:

No way, I’m not paying a penny more for Coke or other High Fructose Corn Syrup containing product.

It’s a little thing called added value, please research before posting. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:05
  • Quote
etalian
Mar 20, 2006
slow death by corn is a american virtue

 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:06
  • Quote
John McCain
Jan 28, 2009

B.H. Facials posted:

Actually it’s methane that’s the culprit. It’s heavier than air, odorless and displaces the oxygen. By the time you feel lightheaded due to lack of O2 it’s already too late. It’s not difficult for people to be overcome by it without realizing it’s happening because they’re exhaling CO2 so the sensation of suffocating is lost.

H2S is heavier than air and is straight-up toxic instead of just air-displacing. Methane is neither heavier than air (molar mass of ~16 vs O2 at ~32) nor toxic. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:16
  • Quote
xjohnson
Sep 6, 2006
Johnson?

Hey just came to say that it’s normal for companies to contest OSHA fines and they are almost always cut in half when they do so. Also, all OSHA stuff is public knowledge so you could go on their website and see who died on the job in your local area! (IIRC) 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:16
  • Quote
Monkey Fracas
Sep 11, 2010

…but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

etalian posted:

slow death by corn is a american virtue

One way or another, the corn’ll getcha, you’ll see!

*cackles, fades into shadows at far end of room* 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:19
  • Quote
withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

Talkc posted:

Everytime i see something like this, I have to remind myself that this is just one mole in a god drat HILL of bullshit that is wrong with America.

Hills aren’t made out o

Wario In Real Life posted:

Fixed that for you.

Not really, no. In most civilized parts of the world, child labor is illegal, and workplace safety regulations are taken more seriously.

I worked for a summer shoveling plastic in a plastic foam factory when I was in college, and I remember when a coworker removed a piece of a safety barrier because he thought he could do his job more effectively that way. The only person he was endangering was himself, but he still got chewed out horribly by the work supervisor.

olylifter
Sep 13, 2007

HondaRider271 posted:

I don’t really care how much the fine from OSHA is, I’m more interested in how much they pay the families. If they pay the families a $1 million settlement and fire the supervisor then the fine from OSHA is pretty immaterial.

In Canada, with the passage of bill C-45, the supervisor, and everyone upwards from him for whom culpability could be assigned would be criminally liable for the deaths.

The fact that the American system relies on piddling fines and a completely hosed tort law system to make up for people’s losses when their kids/parents have died is insane. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:44
  • Quote
naptalan
Feb 18, 2009

This is terrifying. I work in the grain industry (Australia); forwarded this to my boss and coworkers.  I haven’t heard any stories of people falling into silos here, but apparently grain augers are crazy dangerous. My boss says a guy in our state had an arm ripped off by one about 10 years ago. I can’t find any stories of grain-related fatalities in the last few years though, so maybe our safety regulations are more strictly followed than America’s. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 04:46
  • Quote
Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

Suffer this Terrible curse!

olylifter posted:

In Canada, with the passage of bill C-45, the supervisor, and everyone upwards from him for whom culpability could be assigned would be criminally liable for the deaths.

The fact that the American system relies on piddling fines and a completely hosed tort law system to make up for people’s losses when their kids/parents have died is insane.

lol isn’t the go-to Conservative Solution for business-consumer relations (especially for the high costs of medical bills) TORT REFORM? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 05:13
  • Quote
withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

Talkc posted:

Mole hill.

Also i may have mixed the phrasing with ant hill. I dunno. I was too busy thinking about how horrible it would be to suffocate in a stinky corn silo.

A mole hill is made by a single mole. Also, IME, corn silos aren’t stinky. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 05:20
  • Quote
ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Probation
Can’t post for 3 days!

B.H. Facials posted:

Actually it’s methane that’s the culprit. It’s heavier than air, odorless and displaces the oxygen. By the time you feel lightheaded due to lack of O2 it’s already too late. It’s not difficult for people to be overcome by it without realizing it’s happening because they’re exhaling CO2 so the sensation of suffocating is lost.

This post is the GBS on chemistry equivalent of CSI on hacking, “I’ll create a GUI interface using Visual Basic. See if I can track an IP address.” 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 05:30
  • Quote
Muslim Wookie
Jul 6, 2005

naptalan posted:

This is terrifying. I work in the grain industry (Australia); forwarded this to my boss and coworkers.  I haven’t heard any stories of people falling into silos here, but apparently grain augers are crazy dangerous. My boss says a guy in our state had an arm ripped off by one about 10 years ago. I can’t find any stories of grain-related fatalities in the last few years though, so maybe our safety regulations are more strictly followed than America’s.

Stuff like this in general doesn’t fly in Aus. Our OH&S departments (WorkSafe) have real teeth, and this all really felt in the resources sector.

Let’s take one of the examples out of the OP and apply Aussie rules:

pathetic little tramp posted:

Employee #1, age 15, was atop a railroad car watching the unloading of corn from the center bin compartment. He was last seen sitting on the edge of the compartment with his legs hanging freely in the bin. Employee #1 apparently lost his balance, fell into the compartment, and was pulled under the flowing corn in the bin. He died of suffocation. There were no witnesses to the fall.

Immediately, 3 serious breaches of the law:
1. Employee in a danger area without a purpose or training.
2. Employee has no PPE i.e. safety harness.
3. Employee is unsupervised in a danger area.

A fine large enough to effect the business and business owners would be levied, on purpose, incredible I know… and the business would be given a number of directives regarding remediation of their environment and procedures that they are obligated by law to follow or face further fines and possible civil and eventually criminal prosecution, and the only negotiation on the fines is “you may be able to deduct the cost of implementing the improved safety procedures from the fine total, maybe.”

The others all have the same things wrong… the supervisor getting into the confined space is a laugh, should have immediately organised external help instead of jumping in. I see a host of other issues, such as not having isolation procedures for equipment, allowing personnel into actual operating machinery, no PPE anywhere at all, no training, and basically considering confined spaces as “aint no thang”.

As a people, you should be ashamed of allowing 180 deaths that are EASILY and COMPLETELY preventable to occur. Yes, many people die all the time, but very simple actions and a general “safety culture” could have kept those people alive. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 06:15
  • Quote
Monkey Fracas
Sep 11, 2010

…but then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you!

Muslim Wookie posted:

As a people, you should be ashamed of allowing 180 deaths that are EASILY and COMPLETELY preventable to occur. Yes, many people die all the time, but very simple actions and a general “safety culture” could have kept those people alive.

Try telling that to the majority of the people who live here. The people it would affect (employers) generally really don’t give a poo poo that people are dying and will actively fight any changes. Plus, half of our general population has somehow been mobilized to fight for less regulation, a thing that at best does not help them and probably hurts them, even if they don’t know it.

My country really does embarrass me on a rather consistent basis- I can only hope too many people outside the country aren’t watching Here Comes Honey Boo Boo or that show about the hicks with 19 loving homeschooled kids or whatever, gently caress. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 06:33
  • Quote
B.H. Facials
May 9, 2011

The B.H. is short for butthole.

ArbitraryC posted:

This post is the GBS on chemistry equivalent of CSI on hacking, “I’ll create a GUI interface using Visual Basic. See if I can track an IP address.”

Yeah, I was wrong. My apologies. I didn’t do any fact checking as I’m on a POS phone and I apparently read an article that was also wrong. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 06:46
  • Quote
Muslim Wookie
Jul 6, 2005
It’s crazy to me that people are complaining that if the fines are too high the business could go under! THAT’S THE loving POINT. They need to be incentive enough for the business owners to not even take the calculated gamble of “nothing will happen for a long enough time that when it does it will still be cheaper than having done things safely all this time”.

Look at this: http://www.sia.org.au/news/updates/…e-location.html

$50,000, just for being lost and at risk. Workplace safety needs to be over the top seriously enforced because the only way to ensure a workplace is safe is to make it unprofitable to do so. Anyone saying things like “well a good employer will just naturally do that” as a reason against “regulations” are loving retards because if that were the case then increased regulation wouldn’t bother those good employers at all. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 07:50
  • Quote
Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

^^^That’s not what they’re saying. The argument is that by forcing them to pay for inspections and all kinds of equipment and things like that, you’re hurting their business, and that it’s more efficient if they can handle the safety aspect on their own. Flimsy is a bit of an understatement for that argument, but at least get it right.

I grew up in rural Illinois, and I’ve done this before, but not with anything moving underneath. If there’s a crust on the corn, you have to go in there with shovels and kind of shift everything around. It’s really compact, and the dust is insane. You have to keep your mouth covered. Don’t know how much truth there is to it, but the farmer I worked with said that there can be sections of corn that compact together and heat up or something. Ends up creating a weak spot. You step on that poo poo, you’re hosed, regardless of whether or not anything is moving. It’s pretty terrifying. If you sink down to just your knees, you’re hard pressed to get out on your own. These stories are what nightmares are made of. I’m all for throwing companies under the bus that just willfully let that poo poo slide, but good luck trying to get a 70 year old driving a $400 truck living in the cheapest areas in the country to buy some fancy shmancy sound breaker upper thang. I’m sure quite a few of those accidents are on family farms, seeing as drat near every one has a silo.Volkerball fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 09:31

# ? Mar 28, 2013 09:29
  • Quote
Chichevache
Feb 16, 2010

Don’t you know who I am?

I’m the Halfback, benched!

Volkerball posted:

but good luck trying to get a 70 year old driving a $400 truck living in the cheapest areas in the country to buy some fancy shmancy sound breaker upper thang. I’m sure quite a few of those accidents are on family farms, seeing as drat near every one has a silo.

You don’t need luck. If that Luddite fuckstick doesn’t want to get proper equipment and insists on risking the lives of his employees then you put him out of business. This shouldn’t be about changing their minds. OSHA should have the power to investigate and enforce proper safety at all times. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 09:48
  • Quote
Israfel
Apr 23, 2010

Monkey Fracas posted:

Try telling that to the majority of the people who live here. The people it would affect (employers) generally reallydon’t give a poo poo that people are dying and will actively fight any changes. Plus, half of our general population has somehow been mobilized to fight for less regulation, a thing that at best does not help them and probably hurts them, even if they don’t know it.

Yes, the mid-level foremen at a factory really does not give a poo poo at all if the people he works with every day die agonizing deaths under his watch. :eyeroll: 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 09:57
  • Quote
Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

robot whores
come before
a cure for
cancer


Israfel posted:

Yes, the mid-level foremen at a factory really does not give a poo poo at all if the people he works with every day die agonizing deaths under his watch. :eyeroll:

I’ve had bosses who literally didn’t remember things I just told them. I once told a guy “Hey, I’m quitting, I’m gonna work the summer in Montana and then move elsewhere” and got a sort of “uh huh, cool Nessus – hey, if we need you on weekends can we call you?”

I doubt it would be active malice. It would probably come after dealing with nineteen other pieces of poo poo and he makes a bad call. As always the real enemy is capitalism. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 10:15
  • Quote
Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

^^^I’m a mid-level factory lead man, and I talk to my guys about their plans for the future, even if that means leaving the shop. Don’t hold it against them. Who cares, it’s just a job. My anecdotal evidence cancels out yours.

Chichevache posted:

You don’t need luck. If that Luddite fuckstick doesn’t want to get proper equipment and insists on risking the lives of his employees then you put him out of business. This shouldn’t be about changing their minds. OSHA should have the power to investigate and enforce proper safety at all times.

“Employees.” “Business.” It just doesn’t work like that out here. Most of the farms around here have like 2-3 people that work on them, and the people doing the work aside from whoever owns the place are just some friends or family or something that weren’t doing anything that day, maybe bring along “the boy” so he could get his hands dirty. There’s no money in the area to fund anything like what you’re proposing. You can get a nice place for like $350-$450 a month, and there’s few jobs that will support even that. We’re talking about thousands of these little small time ops all over the state. Who pays for this OSHA program to inspect and enforce safety precautions on every group of beer drinking retirees every time they jump in a silo? The farmers? I think if you saw the way most of these guys live, you’d agree that they aren’t capable of it. Straight up Little House on the Prairie poo poo. Taxes? Illinois already has ridiculous taxes, and I don’t even know what they spend it on, plus you still have to consider the farmers have to have enough to spend on all the precautions that they wouldn’t touch again as soon as whoever forced them to install it walked away. In a perfect world, I agree with your sentiment, but being here and seeing how the whole system here works, I wouldn’t hold my breath. It’s a lot deeper than capital vs. labor.Volkerball fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 10:41

# ? Mar 28, 2013 10:23
  • Quote
Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

This thread, all the stories, and linked articles has given me the jitters and I’m having flashbacks of “The Jungle”.

Monkey Fracas posted:

My country really does embarrass me on a rather consistent basis- I can only hope too many people outside the country aren’t watching Here Comes Honey Boo Boo or that show about the hicks with 19 loving homeschooled kids or whatever, gently caress.

I hate myself, but does anyone know the name of this show? I love train wrecks. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 10:35
  • Quote
IPCRESS
May 27, 2012

Muslim Wookie posted:

Stuff like this in general doesn’t fly in Aus. Our OH&S departments (WorkSafe) have real teeth, and this all really felt in the resources sector.

Let’s take one of the examples out of the OP and apply Aussie rules:

Immediately, 3 serious breaches of the law:
1. Employee in a danger area without a purpose or training.
2. Employee has no PPE i.e. safety harness.
3. Employee is unsupervised in a danger area.

A fine large enough to effect the business and business owners would be levied, on purpose, incredible I know… and the business would be given a number of directives regarding remediation of their environment and procedures that they are obligated by law to follow or face further fines and possible civil and eventually criminal prosecution, and the only negotiation on the fines is “you may be able to deduct the cost of implementing the improved safety procedures from the fine total, maybe.”

The others all have the same things wrong… the supervisor getting into the confined space is a laugh, should have immediately organised external help instead of jumping in. I see a host of other issues, such as not having isolation procedures for equipment, allowing personnel into actual operating machinery, no PPE anywhere at all, no training, and basically considering confined spaces as “aint no thang”.

As a people, you should be ashamed of allowing 180 deaths that are EASILY and COMPLETELY preventable to occur. Yes, many people die all the time, but very simple actions and a general “safety culture” could have kept those people alive.

It gets better for Australians, too: If you’re in NSW or the ACT (possibly the other states as well, I’ve only done business in those two), the CEO and board are personally and jointly liable for workplace deaths. Industrial Manslaughter is magical stuff when it comes to eliminating workplace safety malpractice.

Reading stuff about labour conditions in the US is simply stunning to me. How does it become internalised or acceptable that “This person died at work, and they aren’t a soldier at war, but that’s to be expected”? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 11:12
  • Quote
oxsnard
Oct 8, 2003

Big XII Doormat

Professor Shark posted:

This thread, all the stories, and linked articles has given me the jitters and I’m having flashbacks of “The Jungle”.

I hate myself, but does anyone know the name of this show? I love train wrecks.

19 Kids and Counting. It’s not a train wreck, in fact they are so dull and the show is so uneventful that I can’t even fathom why people like it. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 11:18
  • Quote
Boogaleeboo
Sep 13, 2011

IPCRESS posted:

Reading stuff about labour conditions in the US is simply stunning to me. How does it become internalised or acceptable that “This person died at work, and they aren’t a soldier at war, but that’s to be expected”?

“Suck it up pussy, money don’t make itself”? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 11:29
  • Quote
Lucy Heartfilia
May 31, 2012

IPCRESS posted:

Reading stuff about labour conditions in the US is simply stunning to me. How does it become internalised or acceptable that “This person died at work, and they aren’t a soldier at war, but that’s to be expected”?

Well, employers are rich and employees are poor. Why are people poor? Because the have a bad personality. If an employee dies at work, who is to blame? The morally superior employer or the subhuman employee? The answer is obvious. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 11:46
  • Quote
Israfel
Apr 23, 2010

IPCRESS posted:

It gets better for Australians, too: If you’re in NSW or the ACT (possibly the other states as well, I’ve only done business in those two), the CEO and board are personally and jointly liable for workplace deaths. Industrial Manslaughter is magical stuff when it comes to eliminating workplace safety malpractice.

Reading stuff about labour conditions in the US is simply stunning to me. How does it become internalised or acceptable that “This person died at work, and they aren’t a soldier at war, but that’s to be expected”?

Well some professions are always simply going to be inherently hazardous; safety precautions, while going a long ways towards preventing injury/death, can only do so much. Somewhere miners are going to die, somewhere a worker is going to fall off a roof. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 11:49
  • Quote
numptyboy
Sep 6, 2004
somewhat pleasant

Israfel posted:

Well some professions are always simply going to be inherently hazardous; safety precautions, while going a long ways towards preventing injury/death, can only do so much. Somewhere miners are going to die, somewhere a worker is going to fall off a roof.

Yeah, in the UK health and safety laws are there to minimise risk ‘where reasonably possible’.

If there is a job where where an employee is expected to climb trees in a forrest it’s reasonable to expect properly maintained harnesses and PPE for the job and it would be expected that the equipment would be checked regularily – it would be considered unreasonable to expect a fall mat and a emergency medics on site.

Risk assesments for dangerous jobs like silos don’t have to be expensive resource consuming expenditures for these companies. They just need to take reasonable steps to protect workers. It shouldn’t be that complicated and it needn’t bust the bank. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 12:00
  • Quote
Blast of Confetti
Apr 21, 2008
e:Nevermind 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 12:04
  • Quote
BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

There were 112 Australian agricultural workers killed in “Accidents Caused by Submersion, Suffocation, and Foreign Bodies” between 1990 and 1998 according to The Australian Centre for Agricultural Health and Safety’s 2007 report “Traumatic Deaths in Australian Agriculture”. I assume only a fraction of them were grain silo drownings. There were 1883 total agricultural fatalities in that time period.

There were 799 total unintentional deaths of farmers between 1999 and 2002, almost exactly the same rate as in the US per worker in that time period. Australia was not recording fatalities by occupation at that point in time, so the data isn’t there to show how many Aussies drowned in grain silos between 1999 and 2002. Probably more than a couple.

Australia has half as many agricultural workers than the US, but the real lesson of the story is that motor vehicle accidents make up the lion’s share of agricultural workplace fatalities in Australia and the US. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 12:34
  • Quote
Divine Disclaimer
Jan 24, 2013

He hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife.

Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped there wasn’t an afterlife.

Israfel posted:

Well some professions are always simply going to be inherently hazardous; safety precautions, while going a long ways towards preventing injury/death, can only do so much. Somewhere miners are going to die, somewhere a worker is going to fall off a roof.

I think they should have to shut these silos down and not open them while they’re being cleaned. There’s “inherently dangerous” and then there’s “standing on the edge of a massive funnel with sand pouring through it”. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 12:35
  • Quote
Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009

Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy’s genetically enhanced cream corn is superior to the leading brand on the market?!!!

Ahhhh!! I’ll destroy you all!! 

Chichevache posted:

You don’t need luck. If that Luddite fuckstick doesn’t want to get proper equipment and insists on risking the lives of his employees then you put him out of business. This shouldn’t be about changing their minds. OSHA should have the power to investigate and enforce proper safety at all times.

I’ve done a little work trying to get regulatory improvements passed over industries (different field, but I imagine the pattern holds).

The problem is that if you have a regulated industry, every time you have a meeting or ask for feedback, the employers and business owners actually have time to attend those meetings and give feedback and talk to legislators about how horrible the change is and how it’s going to destroy their business.

The workers don’t have that time because they’re actually working (and god help the general public the regulations also protect, because they usually aren’t even aware that the changes are being contemplated). So the only people who get heard are the business owners. It’s not even because they’re donating money or whatever, it’s just because they’re the ones with time to complain.

That’s how this process works in America these days. It only changes when you have a big public outcry but that takes a major disaster AND media willing to make a big story out of it, and that’s rare given the Fox News climate. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 12:42
  • Quote
ghetto wormhole
Sep 15, 2008

Divine Disclaimer posted:

I think they should have to shut these silos down and not open them while they’re being cleaned. There’s “inherently dangerous” and then there’s “standing on the edge of a massive funnel with sand pouring through it”.

It’s kind of important to look in and see how much is left inside because you do have to get inside at the end and shovel the last 5% or so into the auger, at least on bins with a flat bottom. You shouldn’t ever need to get in before that though and asking someone to break a grain crust with their feet while emptying a bin is like asking your employee at a gun range to go hold an apple on their head while you shoot it off with a pistol at 100 yards.

Basically a fairly thick crust can develop from spoilage and when you remove grain from the bottom center of the bin it creates a cavity under the flat crust. If you were to walk over this crust it would obviously break and if the cavity is of any depth you’re going to be instantly buried in grain. It’s not difficult to avoid because everyone working with grain loving knows this happens, it’s safety issue #1 at every farm safety program I attended as a kid.

As far as being buried under corn that’s being unloaded, that’s easy to avoid by not getting near it since there’s no possible reason you would need to be. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 13:02
  • Quote
mds2
Apr 8, 2004

Merry Christmas, from Cyklone

I grew up in a small farming community. My mother ran the local farmers co-op and I worked for the area farmers since about age 12. There wasn’t a day that went past that these giant corporate farms would come and load all us teenagers up and hall us off to the death silos. We’d have to stand in line and they’d march us in. The only reason I survived is because there were enough asphyxiated teens below me to support my weight. Every day.

It is pretty much common sense to know that these farms ONLY want to kill their employees so they can pay some measly fine. A death on the job site improves morale 10 fold, and makes finding replacements super easy. That plus the added bonus of dealing with all the legal issues afterwards.

Other times they would put us in with the livestock in hopes that we would be trampled or mauled to death by an angry sow. But that is another story.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 13:15
  • Quote
Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

Sheen Sheen posted:

This is extra funny because all I had to do was type in “silo deaths uk” into google and I got several examples of British people being killed by silos from much more recently than 100 years ago.

Oh Yeah I’m not saying they don’t happen accidently but when they do the HSE tends to actually do something about it. If a farmer over here got a bunch of kids killed through stupidly unsafe working conditions they’d probably be in jail for manslaughter.

The “100 years ago” thing I was talking about was referring to the movement for workplaces to actually be safe to work in, which was mainly driven by unions during the industrial revolution. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 13:19
  • Quote
Divine Disclaimer
Jan 24, 2013

He hoped and prayed that there wasn’t an afterlife.

Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped there wasn’t an afterlife.

T. Finninho posted:

Rolling Stone article, first thing I thought of, it’s grotesque but hey free markets maaaaaaaan

http://neverloseaholycuriousity.blo…jeff-tietz.html

lol Rolling Stone doesn’t have the article on their site anymore, loving useless, so you don’t get the pictures of massive lakes of pigshit that have gone pink

Thanks, WEB2.0!

Yet I can’t… stop eating ham! 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 13:29
  • Quote
etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Drone_Fragger posted:

The “100 years ago” thing I was talking about was referring to the movement for workplaces to actually be safe to work in, which was mainly driven by unions during the industrial revolution.

Plus making sure kids weren’t working in dangerous conditions by adding in minimum hiring ages.

Luckily Big Ag found the loophole of selling the the labor loophole for agriculture as kids working with mom and pop on the farm. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 13:37
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Thundercracker
Jun 25, 2004

Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.
Khorne demands blood sacrifice sometimes. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 14:24
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Volcott
Mar 30, 2010

Thundercracker posted:

Khorne demands blood sacrifice sometimes.

That was terrible. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 14:38
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Crackbone
May 23, 2003

BigFactory posted:

There were 112 Australian agricultural workers killed in “Accidents Caused by Submersion, Suffocation, and Foreign Bodies” between 1990 and 1998 according to The Australian Centre for Agricultural Health and Safety’s 2007 report “Traumatic Deaths in Australian Agriculture”. I assume only a fraction of them were grain silo drownings. There were 1883 total agricultural fatalities in that time period.

There were 799 total unintentional deaths of farmers between 1999 and 2002, almost exactly the same rate as in the US per worker in that time period. Australia was not recording fatalities by occupation at that point in time, so the data isn’t there to show how many Aussies drowned in grain silos between 1999 and 2002. Probably more than a couple.

Australia has half as many agricultural workers than the US, but the real lesson of the story is that motor vehicle accidents make up the lion’s share of agricultural workplace fatalities in Australia and the US.

Hey look, a bunch of statistics that have fuckall to do with the fact US businesses are sending underage workers to perform highly dangerous tasks without appropriate safety equipment! 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 15:07
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Pomp
Oct 9, 2012

That Crazy Joe is at it again!

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Well, employers are rich and employees are poor. Why are people poor? Because the have a bad personality. If an employee dies at work, who is to blame? The morally superior employer or the subhuman employee? The answer is obvious.

Some of you living outside of the US might think this is entirely tongue in cheek. Sorry to disappoint you, but know it’s actually a really common sentiment through the country. You’re poor because you’re a terrible human being, and deserve it. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 15:17
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Volcott
Mar 30, 2010

Pomp posted:

Some of you living outside of the US might think this is entirely tongue in cheek. Sorry to disappoint you, but know it’s actually a really common sentiment through the country. You’re poor because you’re a terrible human being, and deserve it.

Predetermination, yo. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 15:25
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etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Crackbone posted:

Hey look, a bunch of statistics that have fuckall to do with the fact US businesses are sending underage workers to perform highly dangerous tasks without appropriate safety equipment!

Well in farming discussion it makes sense that someone would build a strawman arguement.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Crackbone posted:

Hey look, a bunch of statistics that have fuckall to do with the fact US businesses are sending underage workers to perform highly dangerous tasks without appropriate safety equipment!

About 0.2% of US ag workers are killed on the job each year, the vast, vast majority of them in motor vehicle accidents (tractors, atv’s, etc. included). If the rate of fatalities by suffocation in grain silos has remained steady since 1984 (which is almost impossible, overall safety has improved significantly since then), based on the numbers in the original article, 0.375% of the ag industry fatalities each year are grain silo suffocations (again, the real number in the 21st century is almost certainly closer to 0.05%). It’s less than 200 fatalities over the past 30 years in an industry that still employs almost a million workers. I bet more people died from bubonic plague in the US in the past 30 years than were suffocated in a grain silo.

OSHA is targeting enforcement on safety issues that are actual problems, like hit by/struck by accidents, equipment operation, and falls from heights greater than 6′. That’s what kills people. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 18:17
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redmercer
Sep 15, 2011

BigFactory posted:

I bet more people died from bubonic plague in the US in the past 30 years than were suffocated in a grain silo.

Gosh, if only there were such a place one could look while you were posting on the Internet

quote:

On average, 10-15 cases of human plague are reported annually in the United States. The rate of plague in the United States is low, since most of the endemic areas are rural and largely uninhabited, thereby limiting human exposure. In recent years, and with the potential threat for bioterrorism, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has specified Y pestis as a Category A bioterrorism agent.

Animal reservoirs in America mostly include squirrels, rabbits, and prairie dogs. However, there has been an established role of domestic cats in the transmission of plague since the late 1970s. Since 1977-1998, 23 cases of human plague associated with cats have been reported from the western states, representing 8% of all reported plague cases during that time.[6] In this scenario, transmission via inhalation was more common than in any other form of plague.

In a study of cat-related plague, mortality was associated with misdiagnosis or delay in treatment. Of the 23 cases from 1977-1998, 5 of 17 bubonic plague cases resulted in death.[6]

http://emedicine.medscape.com/artic…-overview#a0199

You’ve got a smooth trolling style and I’ve got to admire it but really while there’s grown-rear end men desperate to work out there why have a bunch of kids do it? Just because you can pay them less? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 18:53
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Chichevache
Feb 16, 2010

Don’t you know who I am?

I’m the Halfback, benched!

BigFactory posted:

That’s what kills people.

A thousand tons of grain is like a hug right? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 18:55
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Copley Depot
Jul 9, 2009

This space reserved for future text.

BigFactory posted:

About 0.2% of US ag workers are killed on the job each year, the vast, vast majority of them in motor vehicle accidents (tractors, atv’s, etc. included). If the rate of fatalities by suffocation in grain silos has remained steady since 1984 (which is almost impossible, overall safety has improved significantly since then), based on the numbers in the original article, 0.375% of the ag industry fatalities each year are grain silo suffocations (again, the real number in the 21st century is almost certainly closer to 0.05%). It’s less than 200 fatalities over the past 30 years in an industry that still employs almost a million workers. I bet more people died from bubonic plague in the US in the past 30 years than were suffocated in a grain silo.

I don’t think anyone is upset because of the raw number of deaths per se, they’re upset because most of these deaths could have been prevented with basic safety procedures. Comparisons to sharks, the plague, etc. don’t really work because those are freak, unforseeable events. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:00
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Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007
This is the problem with some people, they go “oh but these deaths are statistically insignificant” and fail to grasp that thefact they happened at all is the real tragedy, especially when they’re avoidable. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:20
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Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Copley Depot posted:

I don’t think anyone is upset because of the raw number of deaths per se, they’re upset because most of these deaths could have been prevented with basic safety procedures. Comparisons to sharks, the plague, etc. don’t really work because those are freak, unforseeable events.

Yeah, I think that people are missing the fact that these people, few as they are, would 100% still be alive with some fairly easy fixes.

The fact that there aren’t a lot of of people dying for no reason doesn’t make it less horrible or important. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:25
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BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

All worksite deaths are preventable. Hell, all accidents are preventable, except for act of god type things like earthquakes, maybe. The fact that these deaths are so few and that the OSHA fines were slashed so much makes me conclude that

1) these were obviously first time offenses for these farms. Willful and repeat violators don’t get fines reduced by 90%. Again, there’s millions of dollars associated with fatalities and most of it doesn’t come from OSHA, even if the offender receives a max fine. A single fatality is enough to put many companies out of business. Boo hoo, so sad.

2) OSHA is not really all that concerned with this type of incident because there are so few of them. These incidents are obviously pretty extreme outliers for the industry. If anything, bigger farms have more robust safety programs, the kind that emphasizes confined space entry. Targeted enforcement agenda items, like falls from heights greater than 6′ that kill thousands of people a year in the US across all industries, are hit aggressively.

But this is a really grizzly and sensational story. Kids involved! Cool! 170 or so more people have died this way than from the bubonic plague in the past few decades. Thanks, redmercer, for the info.

Professor Shark posted:

Yeah, I think that people are missing the fact that these people, few as they are, would 100% still be alive with some fairly easy fixes.

The fact that there aren’t a lot of of people dying for no reason doesn’t make it less horrible or important.

Ok, the deaths are horrible for sure. But less important? check. Virtually every grain silo worker seems to know not to do what got these people killed because they’re not dying in scores like in other aspects of the ag industry.BigFactory fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 19:39

# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:28
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Pomp
Oct 9, 2012

That Crazy Joe is at it again!

BigFactory posted:

All worksite deaths are preventable. Hell, all accidents are preventable, except for act of god type things like earthquakes, maybe. The fact that these deaths are so few and that the OSHA fines were slashed so much makes me conclude that

1) these were obviously first time offenses for these farms. Willful and repeat violators don’t get fines reduced by 90%. Again, there’s millions of dollars associated with fatalities and most of it doesn’t come from OSHA, even if the offender receives a max fine. A single fatality is enough to put many companies out of business. Boo hoo, so sad.

2) OSHA is not really all that concerned with this type of incident because there are so few of them. These incidents are obviously pretty extreme outliers for the industry. If anything, bigger farms have more robust safety programs, the kind that emphasizes confined space entry. Targeted enforcement agenda items, like falls from heights greater than 6′ that kill thousands of people a year in the US across all industries, are hit aggressively.

But this is a really grizzly and sensational story. Kids involved! Cool! 170 or so more people have died this way than from the bubonic plague in the past few decades. Thanks, redmercer, for the info.
Ok, the deaths are horrible for sure. But less important? check. Virtually every grain silo worker seems to know not to do what got these people killed because they’re not dying in scores like in other aspects of the ag industry.

“Let’s not fix a fixable issue because another issue needs fixing.” 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:54
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Drone_Fragger
May 9, 2007

BigFactory posted:

All worksite deaths are preventable. Hell, all accidents are preventable, except for act of god type things like earthquakes, maybe. The fact that these deaths are so few and that the OSHA fines were slashed so much makes me conclude that

1) these were obviously first time offenses for these farms. Willful and repeat violators don’t get fines reduced by 90%. Again, there’s millions of dollars associated with fatalities and most of it doesn’t come from OSHA, even if the offender receives a max fine. A single fatality is enough to put many companies out of business. Boo hoo, so sad.

2) OSHA is not really all that concerned with this type of incident because there are so few of them. These incidents are obviously pretty extreme outliers for the industry. If anything, bigger farms have more robust safety programs, the kind that emphasizes confined space entry. Targeted enforcement agenda items, like falls from heights greater than 6′ that kill thousands of people a year in the US across all industries, are hit aggressively.

Bullshit. You saw perfectly well in the OP that the OHSA tried to fine the people who do this poo poo enough to send a message, instead all they could levy on the fuckers was some slap on the wrist like 50 grand because the farms got decent lawyers involved. Don’t tell me the OHSA doesn’t care because it’s pretty clear from the OP they do. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:54
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Jesus III
May 23, 2007

I used to work at a grain elevator. I didn’t realize it was this dangerous. We used to walk on the sorghum all the time. It was twenty years ago, though. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 19:55
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Chichevache posted:

A thousand tons of grain is like a hug right?

You know drat well that wasn’t his point.

Pomp posted:

“Let’s not fix a fixable issue because another issue needs fixing.”

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prioritizationVolkerball fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 20:08

# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:00
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BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Drone_Fragger posted:

Bullshit. You saw perfectly well in the OP that the OHSA tried to fine the people who do this poo poo enough to send a message, instead all they could levy on the fuckers was some slap on the wrist like 50 grand because the farms got decent lawyers involved. Don’t tell me the OHSA doesn’t care because it’s pretty clear from the OP they do.

Are you talking about the one example that happened prior to 1994? The one they talk about in the article? That was 20 years ago? In this completely non-sensationalist article?

EDIT: Or are you talking about the more recent fatality in the article where the farm went out of business as a result and has to notify OSHA if they ever go back into business so they can be strictly monitored?BigFactory fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2013 around 20:24

# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:12
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ghetto wormhole
Sep 15, 2008

Jesus III posted:

I used to work at a grain elevator. I didn’t realize it was this dangerous. We used to walk on the sorghum all the time. It was twenty years ago, though.

It’s only dangerous when there’s a crust and you’re pulling grain out from under it, or maybe if you stand right where grain is getting pulled down.

Nobody grows sorghum around here anymore though, corn is worth more and has been improved so much that it’s not worth it. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:23
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InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.
14 years old, I wonder how many years he has been working on or around farm and farm equipment at that point in his life. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:38
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

InterceptorV8 posted:

14 years old, I wonder how many years he has been working on or around farm and farm equipment at that point in his life.

This was making the rounds on my facebook today.

 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:44
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InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Volkerball posted:

This was making the rounds on my facebook today.

I just remember by 14 I had many years of dealing with animals by that time. And I don’t mean just cats and dogs. I work with some people that by the time they hit 14, they had a couple of years of driving already under their belts, and grandpa would break out one of the old fords, toss a haybale in the back and then they where legal to drive on the streets. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 20:54
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withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

Volkerball posted:

This was making the rounds on my facebook today.

Whoa, that poster predates the internet by a lot. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 21:03
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

InterceptorV8 posted:

I just remember by 14 I had many years of dealing with animals by that time. And I don’t mean just cats and dogs. I work with some people that by the time they hit 14, they had a couple of years of driving already under their belts, and grandpa would break out one of the old fords, toss a haybale in the back and then they where legal to drive on the streets.

I grew up in a small town surrounded by farms. My graduating class was like 70-ish. I lived in town, and my family is one of the joint mom at the nursing home/dad at the machine shop ones that are so prevalent, so I was immersed in farming, and yet, watched it from the 3rd person. One of the interesting things was 8th grade graduation. Our school system still has a ceremony after 8th grade, because there was a huge base of kids who would traditionally only go until 8th grade, and then go to work full time at the farm. I think it’s shifted now, and those kids tend to finish high school before following dad’s footsteps (at least I don’t remember anyone leaving in my class), but the ceremony is still there. It’s pretty surreal. Going to Chicago for the first time was like tripping on acid. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 21:18
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Crackbone
May 23, 2003

BigFactory posted:

All worksite deaths are preventable. Hell, all accidents are preventable, except for act of god type things like earthquakes, maybe. The fact that these deaths are so few and that the OSHA fines were slashed so much makes me conclude that

1) these were obviously first time offenses for these farms. Willful and repeat violators don’t get fines reduced by 90%. Again, there’s millions of dollars associated with fatalities and most of it doesn’t come from OSHA, even if the offender receives a max fine. A single fatality is enough to put many companies out of business. Boo hoo, so sad.

You don’t have the first loving clue what you’re talking about. Slashed fines that are essentially a slap on the wrist are par for the course and have been for decades, whether it’s OSHA, SEC, NLRB or any other regulatory agency. You’re assuming something that has no basis in reality and the facts contradict.

quote:

2) OSHA is not really all that concerned with this type of incident because there are so few of them. These incidents are obviously pretty extreme outliers for the industry. If anything, bigger farms have more robust safety programs, the kind that emphasizes confined space entry. Targeted enforcement agenda items, like falls from heights greater than 6′ that kill thousands of people a year in the US across all industries, are hit aggressively.

Yes, OSHA doesn’t care about worker deaths :eyeroll:. You’re probably right in that it’s a low-priority issue (in that regulatory agencies are horrible understaffed), but that doesn’t change the fact these deaths are completely preventable with safety equipment and still occur. What’s your upper limit on worker deaths before you give a poo poo? 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 21:24
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Pomp
Oct 9, 2012

That Crazy Joe is at it again!

Funding would make prioritization a non-issue  

# ? Mar 28, 2013 21:28
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Pomp posted:

Funding would make prioritization a non-issue 

We have come full circle. The GBS Loop strikes again.

Volkerball posted:

“Employees.” “Business.” It just doesn’t work like that out here. Most of the farms around here have like 2-3 people that work on them, and the people doing the work aside from whoever owns the place are just some friends or family or something that weren’t doing anything that day, maybe bring along “the boy” so he could get his hands dirty. There’s no money in the area to fund anything like what you’re proposing. You can get a nice place for like $350-$450 a month, and there’s few jobs that will support even that. We’re talking about thousands of these little small time ops all over the state. Who pays for this OSHA program to inspect and enforce safety precautions on every group of beer drinking retirees every time they jump in a silo? The farmers? I think if you saw the way most of these guys live, you’d agree that they aren’t capable of it. Straight up Little House on the Prairie poo poo. Taxes? Illinois already has ridiculous taxes, and I don’t even know what they spend it on, plus you still have to consider the farmers have to have enough to spend on all the precautions that they wouldn’t touch again as soon as whoever forced them to install it walked away. In a perfect world, I agree with your sentiment, but being here and seeing how the whole system here works, I wouldn’t hold my breath. It’s a lot deeper than capital vs. labor.

 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 22:23
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Copley Depot
Jul 9, 2009

This space reserved for future text.

These mom and pop corn growing operations don’t have the wherewithal to navigate the maze of OSHA regulations. 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 22:27
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Three-Phase
Aug 5, 2006

Four phases.

One-two-three-fucking-four phases.

Also, mods should be doing more of this custom title shit to maintain the funny. I don’t mind the , but it reflects poorly on the forums. 

So is there any way to combine getting trapped under corn, delta-P, and arc flash into one massive Lovecraftian superhazard? 
# ? Mar 28, 2013 23:52
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Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

Copley Depot posted:

These mom and pop corn growing operations don’t have the wherewithal to navigate the maze maize of OSHA regulations.

^^^^ I should make clear that I got the joke, but people are actually arguing this right now. Not picking on you.

I’m pretty sure they can do enough so that they aren’t killing children on their farms. Besides, this was a large operation if I remember correctly.

How exactly did we get back to  those poor farmers. I mean, they might have their insurance raised or even lose their farms; do you have any idea how difficult it is to recover from something like that? Gosh, all they did was kill a couple of kids, the parents will get over it. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 23:55
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ghetto wormhole
Sep 15, 2008

Three-Phase posted:

So is there any way to combine getting trapped under corn, delta-P, and arc flash into one massive Lovecraftian superhazard?

You’re getting sucked into an intake pipe when suddenly a tractor-trailer loaded with corn crashes into a nearby transformer and both fall into the water above you. 

# ? Mar 28, 2013 23:56
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Babby Formed
Jan 2, 2009

Three-Phase posted:

So is there any way to combine getting trapped under corn, delta-P, and arc flash into one massive Lovecraftian superhazard?

Tesla coil submerged in 200 feet of high fructose corn syrup?

edit: It’s more of a dickish game trap though, really.Babby Formed fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 00:00

# ? Mar 28, 2013 23:58
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Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Pohl posted:

I mean, they might have their insurance raised or even lose their farms; do you have any idea how difficult it is to recover from something like that? Gosh, all they did was kill a couple of kids, the parents will get over it.

That seems to be what the line of thinking comes down to. They’re too small time to prevent preventable accidents, gently caress people! It was just a kid! 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 00:03
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Pohl posted:

^^^^ I should make clear that I got the joke, but people are actually arguing this right now. Not picking on you.

I’m pretty sure they can do enough so that they aren’t killing children on their farms. Besides, this was a large operation if I remember correctly.

How exactly did we get back to  those poor farmers. I mean, they might have their insurance raised or even lose their farms; do you have any idea how difficult it is to recover from something like that? Gosh, all they did was kill a couple of kids, the parents will get over it.

You’re not getting it. It’s not that employers are forcing employees to go through with cheaper, less safe practices to save cash. They’re doing it because that’s the way they’ve always done it. They aren’t rubbing the consequences of it off onto other people and banking on it. Most the time, they’re the ones working the hardest and putting themselves in the most risk. You’re not fighting poor business practices. You’re fighting a culture. The parents, kids, and workers EMBRACE this poo poo, because nothing serious ever happens on a scale to make an impact, and most of the lose a finger type accidents are in “suck it up” territory. Even if OSHA had the kind of budget to enforce a program that ensured that everyone had the infrastructure at the farms to do everything safely, they’d take shortcuts while joking about the jerkoffs who think they need that stuff, and you’d still get accidents. All I’m arguing is that saying we can throw money at OSHA and increase regulation and these things won’t happen anymore is incredibly naive. As far as large plants that aren’t under the table “businesses” they should absolutely be required to maintain a proper safety program, and it should be their responsibility to ensure that their workers are abiding by it. But you’re still going to see kids, adults, and whoever else getting in workplace accidents that are completely preventable because safety in small time places. These 12 year old kids you are all white knighting would spit dip at your feet and call you a pussy right up until they get swallowed up in a corn abyss.Volkerball fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 00:27

# ? Mar 29, 2013 00:13
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kedo
Nov 27, 2007

You know, apparently my parents raised me right because I feel like “don’t walk in corn silos” might have been one of the first things the taught me. Granted we lived in Chicago which is surrounded by roughly eleventy-nine trillion corn fields.

It’s all the parents’ fault, just like everything else!

e: Not to get all serious in a joke post, but:

Volkerball posted:

These 12 year old kids you are all white knighting would spit dip at your feet and call you a pussy right up until they get swallowed up in a corn abyss.

After leaving Chicago I grew up in a small, rural town and have seen enough to know this is absolutely 100% accurate. Regulation can only go so far. An attitude change needs to take place as well, but that will be very tough.kedo fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 00:48

# ? Mar 29, 2013 00:34
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Archonex
May 2, 2012

MY OPINION IS DOGSHIT IGNORE MY BRAIN DAMAGED RAMBLINGS

Volkerball posted:

You’re not fighting poor business practices. You’re fighting a culture. The parents, kids, and workers EMBRACE this poo poo, because nothing serious ever happens on a scale to make an impact, and most of the lose a finger type accidents are in “suck it up” territory.

quote:

These 12 year old kids you are all white knighting would spit dip at your feet and call you a pussy right up until they get swallowed up in a corn abyss.

Everything else aside, this is a really good point that I think some people are missing.

Setting aside how irregular death by corn is, a lot of the farmers i’ve met around where I live pride themselves on living a more rough n’ tumble lifestyle. They’d probably laugh if someone told them they had to do ____ precaution before getting to work on whatever the project of the day is.

It’s certainly by no means right (or smart), but it is definitely a thing. Especially among the people who didn’t grow up on a farm. The latter of which are the sort of blowhard morons who are liable to get something vital hacked off one day when they decide to make an ill-timed and up close examination of a thresher to see how it works.

I’m not even sure how OSHA would go about dealing with that, except through better punitive fines. Which they obviously can’t effectively levy at the moment anyways.

About the only quick and efficient fix I can think of is if there was a sudden epidemic of corn silo’s devouring children and teenagers whole. At which point the media would probably pick it up and you’d see a huge shift in how people handled certain practices.Archonex fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 01:10

# ? Mar 29, 2013 00:59
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A Terrible Person
Jan 8, 2012
I AM A SELFISH, RETARDED DIPSHIT WHO WANTS TO TAKE HIS OWN LIFE. YOU SHOULD ENCOURAGE ME TO DO SO AT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY.

Archonex posted:

About the only quick and efficient fix I can think of is if there was a sudden epidemic of corn silo’s devouring children and teenagers whole. At which point the media would pick it up and you’d see a huge shift in how people handled certain practices.

It’d be great if we had some sort of national media system that kept people aware of flaws in our existing systems and legislation while informing people of possible realistic alternatives/changes in a way that motivated people to pressure their representatives into enacting positive change. I guess something like that would be co-opted by partisan actors and converted into a propaganda machine, though. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 01:14
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MisterBibs
Jul 17, 2010

Our future is at stake.

Drone_Fragger posted:

This is the problem with some people, they go “oh but these deaths are statistically insignificant” and fail to grasp that the fact they happened at all is the real tragedy, especially when they’re avoidable.

This line/mentality reminds me of that older Dilbert cartoon where the Pointy Haired Boss makes major changes to the workplace in order to save  a year. Its only inverted: promoting a solution far beyond the scale of the problem.

A workplace issue that impacts a fraction of a percent of its workers deserves the attention of something that impacts a fraction of a percent of its workers.MisterBibs fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 01:31

# ? Mar 29, 2013 01:25
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Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

Volkerball posted:

You’re not getting it. It’s not that employers are forcing employees to go through with cheaper, less safe practices to save cash. They’re doing it because that’s the way they’ve always done it. They aren’t rubbing the consequences of it off onto other people and banking on it. Most the time, they’re the ones working the hardest and putting themselves in the most risk. You’re not fighting poor business practices. You’re fighting a culture. The parents, kids, and workers EMBRACE this poo poo, because nothing serious ever happens on a scale to make an impact, and most of the lose a finger type accidents are in “suck it up” territory. Even if OSHA had the kind of budget to enforce a program that ensured that everyone had the infrastructure at the farms to do everything safely, they’d take shortcuts while joking about the jerkoffs who think they need that stuff, and you’d still get accidents. All I’m arguing is that saying we can throw money at OSHA and increase regulation and these things won’t happen anymore is incredibly naive. As far as large plants that aren’t under the table “businesses” they should absolutely be required to maintain a proper safety program, and it should be their responsibility to ensure that their workers are abiding by it. But you’re still going to see kids, adults, and whoever else getting in workplace accidents that are completely preventable because safety in small time places. These 12 year old kids you are all white knighting would spit dip at your feet and call you a pussy right up until they get swallowed up in a corn abyss.

I completely get it. I didn’t grow up on a farm, but I spent 3 months of every summer living and working on the farm my aunt and uncle owned. I did that from the time I was 5 until I was 15. I also started working in a bakery when I was 12, and I worked on the donut frier from 4 am until it was time for me to go to school. I was going to make a post earlier in the thread that mirrored pretty much what you just wrote, but I got sidetracked and never got around to it.

That said, this is 2013. I agree that this a cultural thing, and that the people involved embrace these practices. What needs to happen is that people need to go to prison for negligent manslaughter. surprise sex a child working for you, you are probably going to prison. Kill that child through negligence and ignorance, here is a small fine. You are basically arguing that nothing can be done, because culture. Here is a hint; we have a great big country with a lot of different cultures. Luckily, we have a very strong and centralized national government. You really don’t need to throw more money at OSHA, sure it is underfunded, but give them the latitude to actually impose penalties that had teeth, and you’d see some change.

I don’t buy into your whole, the kids want to do it attitude, because frankly, they are loving kids. They don’t know what they want or what they need. Just because some jackass straps a kid to a bull when he is 10 years old and the kid says he likes it doesn’t make it a great idea. Sure, it is a cultural thing, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t ignorant and dangerous as hell. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 01:26
  • Quote
Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Pohl posted:

I completely get it. I didn’t grow up on a farm, but I spent 3 months of every summer living and working on the farm my aunt and uncle owned. I did that from the time I was 5 until I was 15. I also started working in a bakery when I was 12, and I worked on the donut frier from 4 am until it was time for me to go to school. I was going to make a post earlier in the thread that mirrored pretty much what you just wrote, but I got sidetracked and never got around to it.

That said, this is 2013. I agree that this a cultural thing, and that the people involved embrace these practices.What needs to happen is that people need to go to prison for negligent manslaughter. surprise sex a child working for you, you are probably going to prison. Kill that child through negligence and ignorance, here is a small fine. You are basically arguing that nothing can be done, because culture. Here is a hint; we have a great big country with a lot of different cultures. Luckily, we have a very strong and centralized national government. You really don’t need to throw more money at OSHA, sure it is underfunded, but give them the latitude to actually impose penalties that had teeth, and you’d see some change.

I don’t buy into your whole, the kids want to do it attitude, because frankly, they are loving kids. They don’t know what they want or what they need. Just because some jackass straps a kid to a bull when he is 10 years old and the kid says he likes it doesn’t make it a great idea. Sure, it is a cultural thing, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t ignorant and dangerous as hell.

You lost me with the bold section, but all in all, I’m in agreement. Sure something can be done, but the point is that it’s not black and white. It’s an extremely complicated issue, and it’s going to take a long time to fix it. I just don’t want people to form a perspective on how regulation on farms should be treated without knowing the massive amount of context that has to be taken into account. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 01:35
  • Quote
Three-Phase
Aug 5, 2006

Four phases.

One-two-three-fucking-four phases.

Also, mods should be doing more of this custom title shit to maintain the funny. I don’t mind the , but it reflects poorly on the forums. 

Babby Formed posted:

Tesla coil submerged in 200 feet of high fructose corn syrup?

Not enough current from the secondary. 

Volkerball posted:

You lost me with the bold section, but all in all, I’m in agreement. Sure something can be done, but the point is that it’s not black and white. It’s an extremely complicated issue, and it’s going to take a long time to fix it. I just don’t want people to form a perspective on how regulation on farms should be treated without knowing the massive amount of context that has to be taken into account.

I’m not sure how I lost you. If you own a business and you essentially kill an employee through lax safety protocol, you should go to prison. If the people in charge had been raping these children they would be in prison right now. However, they killed these children through incredible negligence, and they are going to be fined a very minor sum of money. Not only was one of the children too young to even be doing the type of work that he was doing, they broke numerous rules and regulations that directly led to the deaths of two children, while deeply traumatizing another. Hell, the company even had safety harnesses, but those were locked in a storage shed unused. It isn’t like they didn’t know or couldn’t afford to follow OSHA policies, they chose not to.

This isn’t a complicated issue, and it shouldn’t take a long time to fix. The only reason it is complicated or it might take a long time to fix is because people handwave it away. The biggest obstacle into fixing and regulating these problems isn’t the education and enforcement of the regulations, it is the asinine handwaving of the problem that people engage in to ‘complicate’ things. Seriously, the problems and fixes are simple, the arguments that we can’t move too fast, that people just don’t understand, that this is a special case… those are the things that complicate things.

rbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Probation
Can’t post for 3 days!

Volkerball posted:

You lost me with the bold section, but all in all, I’m in agreement. Sure something can be done, but the point is that it’s not black and white. It’s an extremely complicated issue, and it’s going to take a long time to fix it. I just don’t want people to form a perspective on how regulation on farms should be treated without knowing the massive amount of context that has to be taken into account.

It’s a pretty clear point, the way the law currently reprimands it implies that accidentally killing a 14 year old boy through active negligence (in other words it’s your fault) warrants less of a punishment than literally raping them.

Crimes of negligence should be considered significant rather than just accidents. If you knew full well what the laws were regarding proper safety precautions and you ignored them resulting in an employee death, that should be murder.

Xae
Jan 19, 2005

schwenz posted:

There was a clip in the NPR report this morning where they mentioned that OSHA was getting these small fines passed, but environmental groups were getting huge fines passed for endangering wildlife.

I’d like to see some more info on those numbers.

It is worth noting that the point of OSHA isn’t to level huge fines. It is to prevent accidents from happening, or happening again.

That is why the fines get reduced. If the workplace agrees to stop dangerous practices, replace unsafe equipment or whatever the fine gets reduced.

That being said the fines should probably be ten times what they are now. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 03:30
  • Quote
Muslim Wookie
Jul 6, 2005

Volkerball posted:

You’re not getting it. It’s not that employers are forcing employees to go through with cheaper, less safe practices to save cash. They’re doing it because that’s the way they’ve always done it. They aren’t rubbing the consequences of it off onto other people and banking on it. Most the time, they’re the ones working the hardest and putting themselves in the most risk. You’re not fighting poor business practices. You’re fighting a culture. The parents, kids, and workers EMBRACE this poo poo, because nothing serious ever happens on a scale to make an impact, and most of the lose a finger type accidents are in “suck it up” territory. Even if OSHA had the kind of budget to enforce a program that ensured that everyone had the infrastructure at the farms to do everything safely, they’d take shortcuts while joking about the jerkoffs who think they need that stuff, and you’d still get accidents. All I’m arguing is that saying we can throw money at OSHA and increase regulation and these things won’t happen anymore is incredibly naive. As far as large plants that aren’t under the table “businesses” they should absolutely be required to maintain a proper safety program, and it should be their responsibility to ensure that their workers are abiding by it. But you’re still going to see kids, adults, and whoever else getting in workplace accidents that are completely preventable because safety in small time places. These 12 year old kids you are all white knighting would spit dip at your feet and call you a pussy right up until they get swallowed up in a corn abyss.

This is trash – you think this sort of culture didn’t exist in Aus? Oh bloo hoo hoo it might take 30 years to change let’s not bother. Pathetic. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 03:40
  • Quote
Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Muslim Wookie posted:

This is trash – you think this sort of culture didn’t exist in Aus? Oh bloo hoo hoo it might take 30 years to change let’s not bother. Pathetic.

That’s not what I said. I’m just pushing against the tide of people filing this under capital v labor, and thinking some government policy will change it overnight. Of course we should bother, but it really might take 30 years. That’s a pretty important aspect to know to have a balanced opinion on the issue. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 04:16
  • Quote
mannerup
Jan 11, 2004

Of Whales and Woe

Hopefully he doesn’t burst open like an Orville Redenbacher bag when the family cremates his remains  
# ? Mar 29, 2013 04:31
  • Quote
particle409
Jan 15, 2008

“Thou tongueless crook-pated whore-master!”
Salon had this article a couple days ago:

When workers die: “And nobody called 911″
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/27/whe…ody_called_911/

quote:

CHICAGO — By the time Carlos Centeno arrived at the Loyola University Hospital Burn Center, more than 98 minutes had elapsed since his head, torso, arms and legs had been scalded by a 185-degree solution of water and citric acid inside a factory on this city’s southwestern edge.

The laborer, assigned to the plant that afternoon in November 2011 by a temporary staffing agency, was showered with the solution after it erupted from the open hatch of a 500-gallon chemical tank he was cleaning. Factory bosses, federal investigators would later contend, refused to call an ambulance as he awaited help, shirtless and screaming. He arrived at Loyola only after first being driven to a clinic by a co-worker.

The article talks about how the temp company which he technically worked for and the chemical company he was working at are both dodging OSHA stuff. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 07:04
  • Quote
Ialdabaoth
Nov 3, 2006

East side, west side,
All around the block,
The Bootlegger’s
rushin’ bizness
At all hours
of the clock.

particle409 posted:

Salon had this article a couple days ago:

When workers die: “And nobody called 911″
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/27/whe…ody_called_911/

The article talks about how the temp company which he technically worked for and the chemical company he was working at are both dodging OSHA stuff.

We had a fun issue in my town recently — the owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars owns Flex-N-Gate, which operates a car parts factory here. He’s got workers handling hexavalent chromium protected by nothing more than dust masks, latex gloves, and t-shirts. After several years OSHA handed out a $57,000 fine — supplementing the half dozen or so fine they’ve received in recent years. Right after than, they had an incident recently where 11 workers inhaled accidentally released sulfuric acid. It’s all cool though — the local library contains the Shadid Khan Computer Laboratory and the University ironically boasts a Khan Annex for the college of applied health sciences. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 07:47
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

Volkerball posted:

That’s not what I said. I’m just pushing against the tide of people filing this under capital v labor, and thinking some government policy will change it overnight. Of course we should bother, but it really might take 30 years. That’s a pretty important aspect to know to have a balanced opinion on the issue.

Bullshit. This is straight up negligent manslaughter and you are handwaving it away as some sort of special circumstance. This isn’t a complicated issue, but you are trying to make it one. I’m going to repeat it so you understand, it isn’t complicated. If the local farmer (conglomeration) wants to cry about abusive and unfair labor laws, gently caress them. Even the simplest family farm can promote and follow standardized and acceptable safety protocol, your argument that it is somehow endemic and cultural means jack poo poo. This problem, and many like it could be solved tomorrow if we didn’t have people like you making excuses for people being buried alive in corn or pig poo poo.

Oh, and gently caress your capital vs labor comment, who said that? I’d like to talk to them and give them some chocolate and maybe a terrorist fist bump.Pohl fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 08:17

# ? Mar 29, 2013 08:06
  • Quote
zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

All the “its only a fraction of occupational deaths” arguments should be completely legless as we’ve had best practices around confined space and lock out/tag out for 30+ years and regulations for 20. No one is exaggerating when they say something like this is preventable.

As far as corporate responsibility, for better or worse large corporate operations have safe operation codified in the executive level and can usually furnish enough evidence that someone tried at some point to minimize tort liability. Smaller operations can manage the good old boys pass outside endemic issues.

But seriously think about how you are getting out any time you are doing something interesting, restricted, collapsible, or otherwise out of the ordinary. Out of where? Anywhere. As with every modern issue, it is an education and culture thing primarily so the more a layman knows, the better. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 08:21
  • Quote
Ialdabaoth
Nov 3, 2006

East side, west side,
All around the block,
The Bootlegger’s
rushin’ bizness
At all hours
of the clock.
Do things gradually
“do it slow”
But bring more tragedy
“do it slow”
Why don’t you see it
Why don’t you feel it
I don’t know
I don’t know 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 08:23
  • Quote
InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Pohl posted:

This isn’t a complicated issue, but you are trying to make it one. I’m going to repeat it so you understand, it isn’t complicated.

You ever see this trick done before?

http://youtu.be/N45KcCsBYmc

It’s pretty cool and works great. What does this have to do with anything?

Someone tried that at a full shop on a extremely large tire. I can’t remember what ended up in more pieces, the tire and wheel, or the guy who ended up going through the side of the building. You can have all the safety training and equipment in the world, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop everybody from being dumb. I know my job would be much safer if everybody drove correctly, used their turn signals, and didn’t cut me off.

http://youtu.be/xHmFQ43jISI

Heh, this is a great video.InterceptorV8 fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 08:43

# ? Mar 29, 2013 08:39
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

InterceptorV8 posted:

You ever see this trick done before?

http://youtu.be/N45KcCsBYmc

It’s pretty cool and works great. What does this have to do with anything?

Someone tried that at a full shop on a extremely large tire. I can’t remember what ended up in more pieces, the tire and wheel, or the guy who ended up going through the side of the building. You can have all the safety training and equipment in the world, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop everybody from being dumb. I know my job would be much safer if everybody drove correctly, used their turn signals, and didn’t cut me off.

http://youtu.be/xHmFQ43jISI

Heh, this is a great video.

So your argument is that we should not have any safety regulations to protect employees from poo poo head employers because people are stupid? 

I really don’t get your post. I have however worked in a store that has semis deliver daily, and I will agree that the drivers are a complete joke. The majority of them can’t even back their drat truck up, and I’ve seen hundreds of people over the years take an hour to even dock their truck.
I’m not exaggerating, and I don’t think that most truckers are like that, but don’t give me that holier than though poo poo.

Edit: I’m probably not understanding your point and I’m over reacting. If so, I apologize.

As for your first video… why are you, or anyone else driving for a company that requires you to do something so stupid? Plus, are you 14 years old?

You second video makes no sense to me. I’d assume that big machines doing big things get flats now and then; as well I’d assume that qualified people were around to handle those flats. What exactly am I supposed to be awed at by that? Am I supposed to be awed at the size of the machinery? I’m sorry, I don’t get a hard on for machines, cars, parts, robotics, bridges, etc. Big things don’t impress me.Pohl fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 09:05

# ? Mar 29, 2013 08:50
  • Quote
InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Pohl posted:

So your argument is that we should not have any safety regulations to protect employees from poo poo head employers because people are stupid? 

I really don’t get your post. I have however worked in a store that has semis deliver daily, and I will agree that the drivers are a complete joke. The majority of them can’t even back their drat truck up, and I’ve seen hundreds of people over the years take an hour to even dock their truck.
I’m not exaggerating, and I don’t think that most truckers are like that, but don’t give me that holier than though poo poo.

Edit: I’m probably not understanding your point and I’m over reacting. If so, I apologize.

You’re over reacting.

Sure you can have all kinds of safety regs, but if you don’t follow them yourself, what can you do? Also, I bet the dock was hosed up, or you had a rookie.

Speaking of unsafe docks, I would like you to look at these two docks and tell me if you could even on the drunkest of days, come up with this poo poo.

Yeah, that’s up to 68,000 pounds on that. (Trailer/Cargo max gross)

Same thing as above, but the added cinder brick stairs, in water, with a electrical cord running through water is a nice touch. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:02
  • Quote
Mans
Sep 14, 2011

Clearly those jobs need less regulation! 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:05
  • Quote
InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Mans posted:

Clearly those jobs need less regulation!

It’s like gun control, you can make all the laws you want, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop people from breaking the laws, until they try to break the law of physics then all hell breaks loose. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:08
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

InterceptorV8 posted:

You’re over reacting.

You are like some sort of secret agent, aren’t you?
Thanks for making my point. This poo poo is awesome. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:09
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

InterceptorV8 posted:

It’s like gun control, you can make all the laws you want, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop people from breaking the laws, until they try to break the law of physics then all hell breaks loose.

Basically truckers are loving stupid as poo poo and they shouldn’t be allowed on the roads. Every car around them is in danger at every god drat conceivable moment, right?

Or were you saying something else? 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:10
  • Quote
InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Pohl posted:

Basically truckers are loving stupid as poo poo and they shouldn’t be allowed on the roads. Every car around them is in danger at every god drat conceivable moment, right?

Or were you saying something else?

Since 85% of all large truck vs car accidents are the fault of the car driver, it’s the other way around. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:13
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

InterceptorV8 posted:

Since 85% of all large truck vs car accidents are the fault of the car driver, it’s the other way around.

You love to say that over and over. I’m going to dig, but would you care to provide your source?

I don’t actually doubt you, because I know that people can’t drive for poo poo.

This thread is actually about corporate responsibility and corn, but I’ll take a peak into trucking. As a trucker, I’m not sure why you defend the industry. You’ve been posting a long time, so I think that you are actually a pretty good trucker. The people that drive on the road with you are god drat morons, though. Why do you even bother to defend them? 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:19
  • Quote
Pohl
Jan 28, 2005

InterceptorV8 posted:

You’re over reacting.

Sure you can have all kinds of safety regs, but if you don’t follow them yourself, what can you do? Also, I bet the dock was hosed up, or you had a rookie.

Speaking of unsafe docks, I would like you to look at these two docks and tell me if you could even on the drunkest of days, come up with this poo poo.

Yeah, that’s up to 68,000 pounds on that. (Trailer/Cargo max gross)

Same thing as above, but the added cinder brick stairs, in water, with a electrical cord running through water is a nice touch.

I’m going back to this because it makes me curious. Are you saying that you would dock your truck in those docks? Should anyone dock their trucks in those docks? What was your point in showing those docks? 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:27
  • Quote
InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Pohl posted:

You love to say that over and over. I’m going to dig, but would you care to provide your source?

I don’t actually doubt you, because I know that people can’t drive for poo poo.

This thread is actually about corporate responsibility and corn, but I’ll take a peak into trucking. As a trucker, I’m not sure why you defend the industry. You’ve been posting a long time, so I think that you are actually a pretty good trucker. The people that drive on the road with you are god drat morons, though. Why do you even bother to defend them?

http://pdf.reuters.com/pdfnews/pdfn…0327:nPnCL84082

Surprise! New infographic shows that drivers of big, scary trucks are actually
safer.
TUSCALOOSA, Ala., March 27, 2013 /PRNewswire/ — When 18-wheelers and passenger
vehicles collide, it’s no surprise that fatality rates are higher than in
crashes without a truck. Still, thanks to technology improvements, trucker
safety training and other factors, truck-related fatality rates have dropped by
more than half in 35 years.

But who usually causes those wrecks? U.S. Department of Transportation
statistics for years have pointed to passenger vehicle drivers as the culprits.
For example, passenger vehicle drivers were responsible for 87 percent of the
head-on collisions with large trucks during 2010. Looking at all car-truck
crashes, four out of five were caused by car drivers, according to a 2002 AAA
study.

What is the biggest safety threat — cars or trucks? is an info graphic
produced by Randall-Reilly’s Overdrive, the leading magazine for owner-operator
truckers, using DOT data. It presents a few highlights on fault in fatal
truck-car crashes and the role of drunk driving, speeding and other
driver-related factors in truck and car accidents.

There are good reasons why truckers are safer drivers:

* They are well screened. Each must pass tough written and driving tests to get
a commercial driver’s license.
* They get lots of practice. Long-haul truckers often drive more than 10,000
miles each month.
* Their livelihood depends on safety. Employers cannot afford the risk of hiring
a trucker who has too many traffic violations or accidents.
* Most of them get continuing education. All except the smallest motor carriers
conduct ongoing safety training. Many carriers reward safe driving with handsome
cash awards.

To download or share the info graphic, go to
http://www.overdriveonline.com/what…safety-threat/.

About Randall-Reilly
Founded in 1934, Randall-Reilly provides its 4,000+ clients with strategic
marketing services focused on the trucking and construction industries. Its
diversified portfolio includes award-winning, multi-channel media brands, data
services, research, events, and marketing services. Randall-Reilly’s data
division, EDA, is an industry-leading aggregator of equipment purchase and
financing data used by clients for sales lead generation and market insights.

The company’s trucking division serves the fleet, owner-operator, recruitment,
dealer and heavy-duty aftermarket segments. Randall-Reilly’s construction
division covers the highway and heavy construction, road building, aggregates,
landscaping and used equipment markets.

Randall-Reilly has offices in Tuscaloosa, Ala., Anniston, Ala., Charlotte,
N.C., and New Berlin, Wis.

SOURCE Randall-Reilly

Linda Longton, (800) 633-5953, ext. 1438, llongton@randallreilly.com 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 09:27
  • Quote
Mistle
Oct 11, 2005

Pohl posted:

I’m going back to this because it makes me curious. Are you saying that you would dock your truck in those docks? Should anyone dock their trucks in those docks? What was your point in showing those docks?

It’s like those “horrors in electrical wiring” galleries.

I know poo poo all about rigs, but I think the point is that the truck driver can follow every goddamn safety protocol, but that’s not going to keep some lovely dock supervisor from handwaving away the “quick fix” they put in; not because he’s unaware that it’s unsafe, but because he’s trying to land that promotion to regional and putting in a claim for “major loading dock reconstruction to meet safety standards” will really poo poo on his chances.

Really, you can only follow your job’s protocols. You’re not trained to do someone else’s job, and they can still ruin your day because they don’t have their poo poo together.

The relevance is that some accidents are due to Bubba showing Joe, “Hey lookit what I can do!” and not the fault of poor safety protocol. Getting those guys to take poo poo seriously isn’t easy, and is usually a matter of “yeah, my buddy co-worker died that way”, but for each one of them. American exceptionalism : “It’ll never happen to me, even if I do dumb things that make it happen” 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 10:27
  • Quote
BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Muslim Wookie posted:

This is trash – you think this sort of culture didn’t exist in Aus? Oh bloo hoo hoo it might take 30 years to change let’s not bother. Pathetic.

Australians kill just as many farmers per year as Americans per capita. Most of you are killing yourselves while drunk on a 4-wheeler at work, though. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 10:28
  • Quote
BrainParasite
Jan 24, 2003

InterceptorV8 posted:

It’s like gun control, you can make all the laws you want, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop people from breaking the laws, until they try to break the law of physics then all hell breaks loose.

You can’t stop stupid people from doing stupid things. You *can* give businesses real economic incentives to implement safety programs, have safety equipment, and maintain safe facilities.

Throwing your hands up and saying ” that’s just how things are” ignores recent history. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 11:51
  • Quote
BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

BrainParasite posted:

You can’t stop stupid people from doing stupid things. You *can* give businesses real economic incentives to implement safety programs, have safety equipment, and maintain safe facilities.

Throwing your hands up and saying ” that’s just how things are” ignores recent history.

If you just look at the most recent case in the NPR article, the family farm (literally owned jointly by two families) that killed those kids had to be sold, if they ever start up again it’s only under extreme observation by OSHA, and the owners, not the llc, are embroiled in multiple lawsuits. Is that the incentive you’re thinking about? Seems like the system is working the way you want it to.

# ? Mar 29, 2013 12:19
  • Quote
Three-Phase
Aug 5, 2006

Four phases.

One-two-three-fucking-four phases.

Also, mods should be doing more of this custom title shit to maintain the funny. I don’t mind the , but it reflects poorly on the forums. 

InterceptorV8 posted:

Same thing as above, but the added cinder brick stairs, in water, with a electrical cord running through water is a nice touch.

Oh, you want to see some dodgy electrical work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGeOjASps7w&t=10

(I added the t=10 for a reason so you don’t get to see a guy getting whacked by 7.2kV line-to-ground)

As far as safety goes, I consider myself extremely fortunate to work at a place where safety really is a high priority.Three-Phase fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 12:42

# ? Mar 29, 2013 12:32
  • Quote
BrainParasite
Jan 24, 2003

BigFactory posted:

If you just look at the most recent case in the NPR article, the family farm (literally owned jointly by two families) that killed those kids had to be sold, if they ever start up again it’s only under extreme observation by OSHA, and the owners, not the llc, are embroiled in multiple lawsuits. Is that the incentive you’re thinking about? Seems like the system is working the way you want it to.

Except having a business shut down after a terrible accident is very much not the desired outcome.

I’d much rather see more inspection and more serious fines for unsafe conditions and practices so that the chance of workplace injuries and fatalities is lower.

(Incidentally, I find it a little weird to focus on a very tiny fraction of agricultural fatalities when there seem to be much bigger problems in say construction.) 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 12:34
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Three-Phase
Aug 5, 2006

Four phases.

One-two-three-fucking-four phases.

Also, mods should be doing more of this custom title shit to maintain the funny. I don’t mind the , but it reflects poorly on the forums. 

BrainParasite posted:

(Incidentally, I find it a little weird to focus on a very tiny fraction of agricultural fatalities when there seem to be much bigger problems in say construction.)

I was watching a shipyard safety video (caution: graphic and disturbing depictions in this video) that had dozens of real-life incidents:

  • Crane crushes rigger to death between cabin and outrigger
  • Electrical spark causes a flash-fire in a flammable vapor atmosphere killing two workers
  • Worker burning to death after lighting a cigarette in a oxygen-rich environment (pure O2 used to purge a confined space)
  • Asphyxiation in confined spaces
  • Falls from tack-welded scaffolding that collapsed
  • Diving accident related fatalities
  • Slipping on an icy dock section with no railing, falling into water and drowning
  • High-voltage* electrocution of two workers moving a piece of equipment when the crane snagged a power transmission line
  • Worker receiving lethal superheated steam burns to his face and upper body after opening a valve he thought was purged and isolated
  • Low-voltage* electrocution on a 480V panel due to a wiring error to the feeder breaker
  • Low-voltage* electrocution of a worker using an arc welder inside a barge that was partially flooded
  • Worker falling into a water-logged hopper, striking his head and drowning

These videos are some of the best (and most horrifying) safety awareness stuff OSHA does. Awareness of these serious accidents will definitely save future lives. 

(* High voltage is >600V, low is <600V.)Three-Phase fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 12:54

# ? Mar 29, 2013 12:47
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Troll Bridgington
Dec 22, 2011

My eyes don’t work, paint me a word picture.

Three-Phase posted:

Oh, you want to see some dodgy electrical work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGeOjASps7w&t=10

(I added the t=10 for a reason so you don’t get to see a guy getting whacked by 7.2kV line-to-ground)

As far as safety goes, I consider myself extremely fortunate to work at a place where safety really is a high priority.

Holy poo poo, that video scared me. I feel horrible for the inspectors that find these things…

The gas pipe…  

# ? Mar 29, 2013 13:14
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numptyboy
Sep 6, 2004
somewhat pleasant

Volkerball posted:

You’re fighting a culture. The parents, kids, and workers EMBRACE this poo poo, because nothing serious ever happens on a scale to make an impact, and most of the lose a finger type accidents are in “suck it up” territory.

Completely understand this and agree its probably a lot to do with this problem, but it can be changed by changing awareness and incentivising people to be more safety conscious.

Look at the Oil and Gas industry in the UK for example pre and post piper alpha. Once it used to be a ‘suck it up and lets get it done’ culture whereas now its very much safety orientated.
The difference between the US and UK offshore culture is very very different(maybe not so now after the BP disaster).

Not saying you need offshore style safety at farms – the point is that changes can be successful and can make a real difference if given enough support. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 13:21
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ejstheman
Feb 11, 2004

BrainParasite posted:

Incidentally, I find it a little weird to focus on a very tiny fraction of agricultural fatalities when there seem to be much bigger problems in say construction.

I’m sure there are people talking about construction fatalities at this very moment, in other venues than “a discussion thread about a horrible agricultural accident.” Perhaps you could go participate in one of those already-happening conversations, instead of staring at a cloudy night sky and talking about how there used to be so many more stars when you were a kid. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 13:24
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Everdraed
Sep 7, 2003

spankety, spankety, spankety
 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 14:19
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Never stop posting, everdraed. 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 14:32
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pathetic little tramp
Dec 12, 2005

HE IS GLISTEN

particle409 posted:

Salon had this article a couple days ago:

When workers die: “And nobody called 911″
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/27/whe…ody_called_911/

The article talks about how the temp company which he technically worked for and the chemical company he was working at are both dodging OSHA stuff.

I love how the company waited 40 minutes before telling another employee to drive him to a clinic, you really missed the most disturbing poo poo in your quote:

Salon posted:

Raani managers failed to put Centeno under a safety shower after he was burned and did not call 911 even though his skin was peeling and he was clearly in agony, Galassi wrote. “It took a minimum of 38 minutes before (Centeno) arrived at a local occupational health clinic … after having been transported by and in the vehicle of another employee while he shivered in shock and yelled, ‘hurry, hurry!’ ”

A clinic worker called an ambulance, which, according to Chicago Fire Department records, arrived at 2:26 p.m. Centeno was in “moderate to severe distress with 70-80% 1st and mostly 2nd degree burns to head, face, neck, chest, back, buttocks, arms and legs,” the records show. Paramedics administered morphine.

Dude got burned nearly head to toe by 185 degree water+citric acid solution (only safety gear he was issued were latex gloves and rubber boots), they didn’t put him in a chemical shower, didn’t call 911 right away; they waited 40 minutes and then asked one of the other plebeians to drive him to an urgent care clinic. The clinic said holy gently caress, sent him to a hospital, and he died after three weeks of being a burn victim, which is pretty much the most painful thing ever.

Salon posted:

On May 15, OSHA proposed a $473,000 fine against Raani for 14 alleged violations, six of which are classified as willful, indicating “plain indifference” toward employee safety and health. No decision has been made on whether the case will be referred to the Department of Justice for possible prosecution, agency spokesman Jesse Lawder said. OSHA hadn’t inspected the Raani factory for 18 years prior to the accident.

Raani is appealing the OSHA citations. H. Patrick Morris, a lawyer for the company, did not answer questions about the alleged violations. In a court filing, however, Raani denied allegations of negligence in the family’s lawsuit. Among its defenses: Centeno himself was responsible for the accident. “Plaintiff’s Decedent knew about the hazards of his conduct, but proceeded with his course of conduct, causing the claimed injuries,” the document says.

“Judge, this rear end in a top hat knew he was working for a lovely company, maybe he shouldn’t have been so stupid and brought his own safety gear if he cared about this ‘living’ thing so much. I mean, your honour, he was Mexican – I’ve seen their television programmes, can you call that living?” 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 15:12
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Crackbone
May 23, 2003
But listen, more people die from farm equipment accidents in Australia, so it’s no big deal that this company let an employee die in agony. 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 15:18
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SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

Crackbone posted:

But listen, more people die from farm equipment accidents in Australia, so it’s no big deal that this company let an employee die in agony.

We really shouldn’t be worried about those austrailan farmers when time is killing so many people, we need to focus on stopping time. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 15:21
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toby
Dec 4, 2002
edit: whoops, nothing to see here, move along 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 15:56
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BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

BrainParasite posted:

(Incidentally, I find it a little weird to focus on a very tiny fraction of agricultural fatalities when there seem to be much bigger problems in say construction.)

I agree that it’s weird to focus on this very rare cause of death in the agriculture industry, but in general, the construction industry is way, way safer than farming in the US. Like half as many fatalities per year per capita. Farming and mining are far and away the most dangerous industries in the states.BigFactory fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 16:11

# ? Mar 29, 2013 15:58
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Professor Shark
May 22, 2012

Crackbone posted:

But listen, more people die from farm equipment accidents in Australia, so it’s no big deal that this company let an employee die in agony.

Farmers in Australia? Who cares, eventually the sun is going to explode and none of this poo poo is going to matter, so nobody get upset about anything!

This thread is starting to remind me of a news article I read a few years ago where two groups of protesters with different causes (9/11 Truthers and Anti-War in Middle East, I think?) ended up marching into each other and got into a big argument with each other over which was more important (“forget your cause you should be upset about this!!!“).

Just because more than one thing is wrong doesn’t mean you have to choose one over the other.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

A few weeks in advance. What’s even the point? 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 16:31
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withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

The point is for them to fix their safety problems. If they can do that before the inspection then it saves everyone a lot of headache.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize the number of violations.withak fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 16:50

# ? Mar 29, 2013 16:47
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McCloud24
May 23, 2008

You call yourself a knight; what is that?

withak posted:

The point is for them to fix their safety problems. If they can do that before the inspection then it saves everyone a lot of headache.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize the number of violations.

But stories like that show that there’s no incentive to really “fix” anything. Sure, some probably fix things up and they stay that way, but the odds are heavily in favor of a temporary cleanup, followed by a return to the same way things were before. A fine doesn’t necessarily guarantee that things will change for good, but I think it beefs up the odds considerably. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 16:52
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Tigntink
Jan 9, 2008
bouncy

withak posted:

The point is for them to fix their safety problems. If they can do that before the inspection then it saves everyone a lot of headache.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize the number of violations.

They should have been following the safety regulations long ago, with out the threat of an inspection. When I worked for a food prep co, we got totally surprise visits by the health inspectors which was a GOOD thing. As the manager, it really made me keep my poo poo in line in making sure my employees were labeling cleaners right, labeling food storage, keeping the ice bins clean and a few other things people tend to slack on. Get caught with your pants down once and have corporate ream you for fines, you’ll kick your own rear end really quick to make sure it never happens again. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 16:58
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BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Dr Pepper posted:

Why in the world would a safety regulation inspection be announced in advance? 

OSHA comes onto your site for a couple of reasons. Most commonly, it’s because there’s been an accident. The second most common reason is because there’s been a complaint filed, usually by an employee. Very rarely (although it does happen), an OSHA officer happens to drive by and see something that looks wrong, and organizes an inspection based on that. It’s a littlebit like traffic stops, where a cop needs probable cause to search your car. OSHA officers aren’t just walking into your shop unannounced, for no reason.

Now in the case listed above, OSHA might have been invited into the shop to do a safety audit, so the shop owner can see if they’re on the right track. Believe it or not, OSHA regs can be a little byzantine, and full compliance to every chapter and verse isn’t the easiest thing, especially for smaller outfits without full time industrial hygenists on staff (or just people adept at reading legalese).

OSHA does less of that kind of outreach under the current administration, and more enforcement. It’s kind of a loss, really. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:01
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Copley Depot
Jul 9, 2009

This space reserved for future text.

withak posted:

The point is for them to fix their safety problems. If they can do that before the inspection then it saves everyone a lot of headache.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize the number of violations.

It isn’t about collecting fines. It’s about using surprise inspections to force good safety practices to be in place all the time. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:01
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BrainParasite
Jan 24, 2003

BigFactory posted:

I agree that it’s weird to focus on this very rare cause of death in the agriculture industry, but in general, the construction industry is way, way safer than farming in the US. Like half as many fatalities per year per capita. Farming and mining are far and away the most dangerous industries in the states.

Huh, I totally misremembered the statistics on this. I thought construction was a lot worse. I guess if these incidents bring light to the high number of agricultural fatalities, it totally makes sense to focus on them. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:06
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SheepNameKiller
Jun 19, 2004

withak posted:

The point is for them to fix their safety problems. If they can do that before the inspection then it saves everyone a lot of headache.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize the number of violations.

That’s inherently flawed though because it only forces incentive to follow safety procedures for when you know an inspection is scheduled. There’s no onus on anyone to enforce safety rules all the time, and those rules are supposed to be in place all of the time. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:10
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McCloud24
May 23, 2008

You call yourself a knight; what is that?

SheepNameKiller posted:

That’s inherently flawed though because it only forces incentive to follow safety procedures for when you know an inspection is scheduled. There’s no onus on anyone to enforce safety rules all the time, and those rules are supposed to be in place all of the time.

I tend to think of poo poo like this the way I think of cleaning my apartment. If I thought my parents could pop up at any time, and never knew when they might, I might be a little more diligent about vacuuming and washing my sheets. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:14
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

BigFactory posted:

I agree that it’s weird to focus on this very rare cause of death in the agriculture industry, but in general, the construction industry is way, way safer than farming in the US. Like half as many fatalities per year per capita. Farming and mining are far and away the most dangerous industries in the states.

Oilfield work is up there too, but the overall number of people working on rigs is a drop in the bucket compared to farmers. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:19
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withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

IME (though not specifically with OSHA) unannounced inspections are for finding relatively minor things relating to route work or for checking on complaints. If they give you weeks of warning for an inspection that isn’t part of some regular schedule then it is because they already know the place is a disaster and are giving you a chance to fix it without having to waste everyone’s time on the reams of paperwork that they already know will come from a surprise inspection. After you have fixed the obvious stuff then they follow up with actual unscheduled inspections to make sure that the improvements has been incorporated into your procedures.

The goal is to create a safe workplace, not to maximize discomfort for the inspectee.withak fucked around with this message at Mar 29, 2013 around 17:25

# ? Mar 29, 2013 17:23
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InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

Dr Pepper posted:

Why in the world would a safety regulation inspection be announced in advance? 

It’s rather funny, it’s happens because OSHA allows you to “fix” the problem before they show up. Also, and most of you might not know this, if you file the complaint, and you aren’t an employee, they also give them a chance to fix the problem before they show up. I think it is less a “suprise motherfuckers” and more “Hey, assholes, we have enough complaints about you and your company, so fix your poo poo, and we are coming to slap you if you haven’t fixed this by so-and-so date.” 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 18:13
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InterceptorV8
Mar 9, 2004

Would have been a shame to blow it up.

BrainParasite posted:

Huh, I totally misremembered the statistics on this. I thought construction was a lot worse. I guess if these incidents bring light to the high number of agricultural fatalities, it totally makes sense to focus on them.

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2012/0…s-jobs/#photo-1

Look at the raw numbers, it’s pretty surprising. Not included are on the job injuries. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 18:19
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zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

Compliance audits are as much documenting that they know what they should be doing since ignorance can tend to be an excuse. If your compliance audit shows you doing something and surprise a month later someones injured because they bypass that part when OSHA isn’t looking, culpability will be a bit easier to prove and the fine will only be talked down to pennies instead of fractions of pennies. 
# ? Mar 29, 2013 18:19
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chemosh6969
Jul 3, 2004
Walker…is a dangerous man..! Lee Marvin IS Walker, in Point Blank!

InterceptorV8 posted:

It’s rather funny, it’s happens because OSHA allows you to “fix” the problem before they show up. Also, and most of you might not know this, if you file the complaint, and you aren’t an employee, they also give them a chance to fix the problem before they show up. I think it is less a “suprise motherfuckers” and more “Hey, assholes, we have enough complaints about you and your company, so fix your poo poo, and we are coming to slap you if you haven’t fixed this by so-and-so date.”

Because the intent is to get people to fix the issues instead of fining everyone. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 20:37
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Frozen Horse
Aug 6, 2007
Just a humble wandering street philosopher.

BrainParasite posted:

You can’t stop stupid people from doing stupid things. You *can* give businesses real economic incentives to implement safety programs, have safety equipment, and maintain safe facilities.

Throwing your hands up and saying ” that’s just how things are” ignores recent history.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan…mical-fire.html
A bit over a year ago, Sheri Sangji died in a fire in a chemistry research lab at UCLA. Prof. Harran is facing felony criminal charges for an accidental death during research, which by its definition involves unknown hazards. The impact of these events on how research is done in chemistry has been immense. Hazard assessment and lab safety are taken seriously now, as is proper training of student researchers. If university professors can change their culture in response to the threat of prison time, maybe it’s time to try it on business owners. 

# ? Mar 29, 2013 22:01
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Pablo Bluth
Sep 7, 2007
I’ve made a huge mistake.

On the ‘horrible ways to die at work’ theme:

Attempt to travel through an industrial bakery oven

Get locked in a furnace 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 00:24
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SlenderWhore
Jun 17, 2011
I decided to Youtube a video of what a grain silo was like because I wasn’t quite sure and I think I finally found the two stupidest kids in America. 
# ? Mar 30, 2013 01:30
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withak
Jan 15, 2003

F != m * a

SlenderWhore posted:

I decided to Youtube a video of what a grain silo was like because I wasn’t quite sure and I think I finally found the two stupidest kids in America.

It is dangerous while it is being emptied. A static pile of grain isn’t going to suck you under or anything. 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 01:38
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Falcon2001
Oct 10, 2004
|Geek|

Crackbone posted:

But listen, more people die from farm equipment accidents in Australia, so it’s no big deal that this company let an employee die in agony.

Man I know people are dumb, but this keeps happening and I figure I should point it out. Because apparently nobody read the thread and realized the original australia post was in reply to someone saying ‘WHY CAN’T AMERICAN DO SAFETY AUSTRALIA DOES’, right, not just a ‘well Australia sucks too so ignore the dead children of the corn.

See below:

naptalan posted:

This is terrifying. I work in the grain industry (Australia); forwarded this to my boss and coworkers.  I haven’t heard any stories of people falling into silos here, but apparently grain augers are crazy dangerous. My boss says a guy in our state had an arm ripped off by one about 10 years ago. I can’t find any stories of grain-related fatalities in the last few years though, so maybe our safety regulations are more strictly followed than America’s.

 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 04:03
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The junk collector
Aug 10, 2005
Hey do you want that motherboard?

Three-Phase posted:

So is there any way to combine getting trapped under corn, delta-P, and arc flash into one massive Lovecraftian superhazard?

I would expect a grain silo to be explosive under arc flash conditions. There is a lot of flammable dust in the air. 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 04:03
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Three-Phase
Aug 5, 2006

Four phases.

One-two-three-fucking-four phases.

Also, mods should be doing more of this custom title shit to maintain the funny. I don’t mind the , but it reflects poorly on the forums. 

Both of those are horrible. It sounds like the Lenz tragedy could have been prevented by lockout/tagout* and a better understanding of the risks involved.

I’ve been in facilities that had “panic buttons” hard-wired so that if in the extremely rare chance someone did become trapped in a dangerous area, hitting the switch would stop the system and set of an alarm. (Normally closed circuit, so if a wire falls off it’s fail-safe.) Probably wouldn’t work in an area like that with extreme temperatures, but they might’ve been able to make a door with a lever on both sides for safety. I’ve seen large doors that had a simple and reliable mechanism to unlatch the door from the inside.

* – Lockout/Tagout is where you attach an identifying tag and lock to remove a dangerous energy source. That could be locking a circuit breaker in the open position, putting a locking cover on a valve or chaining a valve open or shut, and soforth. The best tags have photos of the workers on them so they can rapidly identify who placed the tag, and the tag lists who to contact and what the job is for. Those are only for safety reasons, and in any company worth its salt, defeating or cutting a lock/tag (without approval from management, and only done in circumstances where keys are lost, worker takes keys home with them, or is incapacitated) is grounds for on-the-spot termination.

LO/TO probably has one of the best costs to saving lives ratio. But it has to be done correctly. Problems include things like someone locking out the wrong component, or the component listed is actually connected to the wrong place. Or all the energy sources aren’t isolated. Or there’s stored energy (electrical, mechanical, or chemical) that is still there that has to be isolated, guarded against, or neutralized.

The junk collector posted:

I would expect a grain silo to be explosive under arc flash conditions. There is a lot of flammable dust in the air.

Ah yes, that’s Class 2 Division 1 per the National Electric Code. (Class 2 being an environment with combustible dust, and division 1 being where you can have a dangerous atomsophere under normal (rather than division 2 – abnormal) conditions.)

Explosionproof electrical fittings are neat. Like electrical switch boxes that are explosionproof. They’re not meant to be a completely sealed box. They have really fine threaded joints and connections so if a spark triggers an explosion inside them, the gasses cool and vent before escaping out of the box.

Sort of like passing gass gently and quietly rather than letting out an obnoxiously loud fart. (For lack of a much better explanation.)Three-Phase fucked around with this message at Mar 30, 2013 around 04:46

# ? Mar 30, 2013 04:26
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Heliotic
Mar 5, 2007
The wicked have told me of things that delight them, but not such things as your law has to tell.

Muslim Wookie posted:

Stuff like this in general doesn’t fly in Aus. Our OH&S departments (WorkSafe) have real teeth, and this all really felt in the resources sector.

The Australian government just passed laws last year that makes the most senior executive of an organisation responsible for ensuring that OH&S is implemented properly. They’re not going to go to jail if some dick doesn’t wear his safety harness or if a supervisor gives an illegal order but if Worksafe investigate and find that there are systemic flaws in your OH&S program, your CEO/Secretary/whatever is going to jail.

I work for a federal government department and it was slightly amusing receiving the department wide notification from the secretary stating (paraphrased) ‘you guys better treating OH&S seriously because it’s my personal neck on the line here.’

There’s also jail time all the way down, for the worst cases of negligence. 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 04:48
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Heliotic
Mar 5, 2007
The wicked have told me of things that delight them, but not such things as your law has to tell.

Volkerball posted:

You lost me with the bold section, but all in all, I’m in agreement. Sure something can be done, but the point is that it’s not black and white. It’s an extremely complicated issue, and it’s going to take a long time to fix it. I just don’t want people to form a perspective on how regulation on farms should be treated without knowing the massive amount of context that has to be taken into account.

So what’s complicated about it?

Here is how it should go down.

1. Workplace safety organisation goes to the farm.
2. Workplace safety organisation says ‘where is your safety equipment?’
3. Workplace safety organisation says ‘Ok, you are to cease operations until you do X, Y and Z.’
4. Farm continues to operate.
5. Workplace safety organisation says ‘Ok, lets just get the police in here to cart your rear end off to the jail.’

Worksafe in Australia can literally shut down any business for any reason at any time.

Half way through a concrete pour? Too bad, I hope your guys like breaking up concrete as much as we like safe working environments.
(For instance, http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act…0225-2f0rb.html)

Seriously. I’m not sure what context justifies your ‘backward as gently caress’ farming communities using unskilled kids to perform work that only trained adults with proper PPE should be doing. 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 04:56
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particle409
Jan 15, 2008

“Thou tongueless crook-pated whore-master!”

InterceptorV8 posted:

It’s like gun control, you can make all the laws you want, but it sure as poo poo isn’t going to stop people from breaking the laws, until they try to break the law of physics then all hell breaks loose.

It just occurred to me, I see regulation working in my industry. I’m about to become a landlord in NY. Lots of buildings have illegal apartments that are dangerous, with no fire exits. Some guy is about to go to jail for a long time for having a bunch of illegal basement apartments in his buildings. I’m willing to bet a lot of landlords will back off on them now. All they need to do is double or triple the fine from $5k to $15k. Then, it won’t be worth it to have the apartments in the first place. Also, send out more inspectors. 

# ? Mar 30, 2013 05:29
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Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

Heliotic posted:

So what’s complicated about it?

Here is how it should go down.

1. Workplace safety organisation goes to the farm.
2. Workplace safety organisation says ‘where is your safety equipment?’
3. Workplace safety organisation says ‘Ok, you are to cease operations until you do X, Y and Z.’
4. Farm continues to operate.
5. Workplace safety organisation says ‘Ok, lets just get the police in here to cart your rear end off to the jail.’

Worksafe in Australia can literally shut down any business for any reason at any time.

Half way through a concrete pour? Too bad, I hope your guys like breaking up concrete as much as we like safe working environments.
(For instance, http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act…0225-2f0rb.html)

Seriously. I’m not sure what context justifies your ‘backward as gently caress’ farming communities using unskilled kids to perform work that only trained adults with proper PPE should be doing.

That’s not what he was saying. He was saying that if a negligent death occurs, whoever was the senior worker should go to prison for life, no questions asked. Silly doesn’t even begin to describe. How do you know the worker wasn’t properly trained or instructed? What if it’s clear there was no malicious intent or even intent to exploit? Accidents happen. Your layout of things is a fair, plausible way to do it. All I’ve been saying is that what most farms will do is implement X, Y and Z, and then shortcut past those steps when no one is around if it’s an inconvenience. So education is just as important as regulation.

I’m mainly just pushing against the tide of idiots who read Das Kapital and think this is some example of a flaw in capitalism and are imagining some guy in a suit sending kids to do cheap, dangerous labor to make some extra cash, when in reality, the farm owner is either living as meager as little house on the prairie and working just as hard as anyone, or it’s some guy in a suit who’s never even seen the place, and doesn’t treat it any different than anything else in his portfolio. We should be talking about how to empower these guys with the knowledge and means to create a safe work environment for themselves. Not trying to justify the most extreme punishments imaginable and seeing if that fixes it.

Companies are a different animal though, because they should already have the infrastructure in place to comply with these kinds of regulations.

Heliotic posted:

The Australian government just passed laws last year that makes the most senior executive of an organisation responsible for ensuring that OH&S is implemented properly. They’re not going to go to jail if some dick doesn’t wear his safety harness or if a supervisor gives an illegal order but if Worksafe investigate and find that there are systemic flaws in your OH&S program, your CEO/Secretary/whatever is going to jail.

I work for a federal government department and it was slightly amusing receiving the department wide notification from the secretary stating (paraphrased) ‘you guys better treating OH&S seriously because it’s my personal neck on the line here.’

There’s also jail time all the way down, for the worst cases of negligence.

Yes, and I loving love it. Love the anecdote about your department by the way – it’s a great example of real change being effected.

The first time I stepped foot in one of these situations I was seriously worried about looking silly for taking all the safety stuff seriously – how wrong I was, everyone took it more seriously and further than I did!

Seeing the concrete pour being halted is another great example, it sends a clear message of “ho ho ho so you thought you could sneak this through and we’d say that’s cool, finish the pour then we can deal with this later”. Hitting a company where it really matters is what gets change through to people.

Volkerball, while on some level I agree with your points I have to say that you are being too pussyfooted about the whole thing. For criminal actions, it goes that ignorance of the law is no defence. Why should it be any different in this situation? It’s common sense that a lot of tasks are dangerous and that they should be taken seriously – a guy in a suit should know this stuff, that’s why he’s in a managing role!

“Gee officer I didn’t think driving around that street corner would be dangerous but looks like I slid into another car and killed someone” – manslaughter

“Gee officer I didn’t think sending a kid into a grain silo that wasn’t isolated would be dangerous but looks like he got sucked under and died” – …. somehow not manslaughter? What?

Volkerball, you don’t need to be the threads “voice of reason”, especially when you actually aren’t. If you just want to speak works that seem important go elsewhere.

Edit: Also something I’ve noticed is that because of the huge safety culture in the resources sector, it’s started permeating everywhere else where I live. From seeing how warehousing operations have changed locally, to even seeing more people just driving on the roads with headlights on permanently. The biggest is basically I’ve seen a huge drop off in the sarcastic pricks that try to make you out as a pussy for not wanting to climb the 2 story high stack of shelving to grab a part.

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